Author Topic: Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc  (Read 6915 times)

Offline Mojo47

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Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc
« on: Thursday 23 April 20 08:08 BST (UK) »
I'm just asking for opinions of those better informed than myself regarding border reivers. My questions are as follows.These are NOT necessarily my opinions, just questions:

where the border reivers clans or just riding surnames as they appeared to call themselves?

Did the border reivers ever actually wear kilts, use clan crests, tartans etc?

Lots of the 'clan' societies etc that exist seem to be twisting reality to suit there romantic notions of what border reivers were. Is this accurate?

Opinions greatly welcomed. Please remember I am only trying to gather opinions and not upset anyone or cause arguments.


Offline Skoosh

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Re: Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 23 April 20 09:43 BST (UK) »
I think you have the right of it Mojo!  ;D

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Re: Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 23 April 20 09:51 BST (UK) »
No, the Border Reivers were not clans, historically speaking.

The clan system was a social feature of the Gaelic-speaking Highlands and Islands.

The modern clan system has its roots in the early 19th century. It is only since then that Lowland and Border families have reinvented themselves as clans and adopted all the tartanalia.

In the 16th and 17th centuries most Lowlanders would have regarded the Highland clans as a bunch of dangerous savages, and would have been horrified at the notion that they had any connection with them.

Things began to change in the 18th century, with the movement of people away from the Highlands to the towns, and to England and overseas, and especially with the clearances in both Highlands and Lowlands from the middle of the 18th century onwards. There was also a deliberate policy by the government to destroy the clan system, which was seen as being at the root of the various Jacobite Risings against the Hanoverian king and government.

Unfortunately the Brigadoon industry has managed, by romanticising the Highlands and the clans, to peddle successfully the idea that every Scot belongs to a clan, and that all Scots are passionately attached to their clan. This is untrue, but it tends to distort how people from other countries, and especially the descendants of those who were forced to leave Scotland in the 18th and 19th centuries, imagine that their displaced ancestors lived.
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Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 23 April 20 10:35 BST (UK) »
Border Reivers were simply murderous thugs who had no allegiance to anyone.
The Reivers were a battle-hardened from endless wars which embroiled the countries of England and Scotland.
Caught between armies from each side of the Border they learned to trust no-one and might is right.
They took what they wanted by force and feared only those who were stronger than themselves.
Cheers
Guy
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Re: Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 23 April 20 11:04 BST (UK) »
Border Reivers were simply murderous thugs who had no allegiance to anyone.
The Reivers were a battle-hardened from endless wars which embroiled the countries of England and Scotland.
Caught between armies from each side of the Border they learned to trust no-one and might is right.
They took what they wanted by force and feared only those who were stronger than themselves.
Cheers
Guy

+1

Unless I find Reivers in my Family Tree in which case they will become an entrepreneurial band of misunderstood individuals where history has painted the opposite picture of their wealth gathering skills.

Offline Elwyn Soutter

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Re: Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 23 April 20 11:38 BST (UK) »
I can recommend “The Border Reivers” by Godfrey Watson, publ 1974, as a very good account of the Reivers backgrounds, lives and social customs.

As Guy has already explained, they were pretty lawless, often spending years pursuing mafia like feuds with each other. Hence the Crown’s determination to finally control them, which it ultimately did. Part of the solution was to send large numbers of them to Ireland.
Elwyn

Offline Mojo47

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Re: Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 23 April 20 14:06 BST (UK) »
Hi all,

Some great opinions! Please keep them coming.
I must admit, the other day online, I was horrified to see pictures a certain border clan(overseas) at a Highland Games(also overseas) in which some of the members looked like Austin Powers in kilts!
I think the barbaric history of the border clans is far more interesting than this modern Disneyland type recreation of families histories than never existed.
Anyway, as already mentioned, my intention is not to upset or cause arguments, only to sort the wheat from the chaff.
I need to research this further I think.And get a copy of that recommended book too!


Offline imchad

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Re: Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 23 April 20 19:52 BST (UK) »
Hi Glasgow University has a superb ón-line course on the Clans, The basic course ís free with further paid courses if desired,  https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/the-highland-clans?fbclid=IwAR01WSifO6cQVQRErd8YkeXCjwlS2vvsPv2zGjqAUCP8zT5Ylrz1iJUKRvE

Offline markheal

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Re: Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 23 April 20 22:48 BST (UK) »
Hi Glasgow University has a superb ón-line course on the Clans, The basic course ís free with further paid courses if desired,  https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/the-highland-clans?fbclid=IwAR01WSifO6cQVQRErd8YkeXCjwlS2vvsPv2zGjqAUCP8zT5Ylrz1iJUKRvE

Imchad
Thank you.  I look forward to getting for better quality understanding than the family myths.
I have signed up for the Glasgow University course and also bought the the Border Reivers book on Ebay for starters!
Mark
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