Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc

[imchad]

Hi, Although I agree that clans were a 'highland thing' there was a Johnstone clan based at Gretna, not too sure of the dates but they were quite early. They would have been Reivers, certainly. The modern romantic idea of the clans was really a Victorian invention, or perhaps a re-invention. The real clans were outlawed after Culloden in 1746, along with kilts, tartans and bagpipes.

[Mojo47]

Thanks again for more input.The online course mentioned looks interesting and there is also a free geneology course that might be worth a look at.
I’m aware of the Johnstone ‘clan’ and these along with others are part of the original question.Did these people call themselves clan? From answers so far, doubtful.Did they have a chief? So far looks doubtful.From what I’ve read(so far),the leaders were referred to as  ‘heidmen’.
Then comes all the other regalia of kilts, tartans, crests etc.Did these border people use bagpipes? I am really curious to separate fact from fiction.Of course, if people want to dress up, that’s fine.When they claim it as part of their heritage, it appears to be a kind of historical fraud.
Keep the thoughts coming!

[Ian Nelson]

Here's some information on Borders Pipes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_pipes

Different from Scottish Small pipes which are a re-invention based on the Northumbrian Pipes and much smaller than the Great Highland Bagpipe
I've been to family gatherings and wee folk clubs and it's quite pleasant to hear the Small pipes played ... but my mate Dennis has to cross a field just to practise his Highland pipes although one guy I knew used to carry just the chanter and practise his fingering techniques but without the drones for harmony it sounded dreich and every tune sounded like the one he had just played.  As someone used to say, Gie the piper a penny to play, and sixpence to shut up.  We always asked the piper if he could play ' O'er the hills and far awa'.  We weren't kidding.  3 tunes max, nae wonder they used them upfront in battles.

[Skoosh]

Did the Glasgow University course on the clans last year. It was excellent, you can pay for a fancy certificate but I declined that! 

Mojo, what you want on the Border Reivers is George Macdonald Fraser's  work "The Steel Bonnets!" pub' Barry & Jenkins. 1971.  Checked online, as little as £5, shop around. A good map attached!

Bests,
Skoosh.

[Elwyn Soutter]

Did these border people use bagpipes?

Keep the thoughts coming!

Godfrey Watson’s book makes no mention of bagpipes, Northumbrian or otherwise. There is mention of them writing poetry and gloomy songs. Quoting George Macaulay Trevelyan (himself a Borderer): “The Border people wrote the Border ballads. Like the Homeric Greeks, they were cruel, coarse savages, slaying each other as beasts of the forest, and yet they were also poets who could express in the grand style the inexorable fate of the individual man and woman. It was not one ballad maker alone but the whole cut-throat population who felt this magnanimous sorrow…”

One Border song that is still sung regularly today, started life as “Armstrong’s Lament.” Part of it runs:

“This night is my departing night
For here nae longer maun I stay
There’s neither friend nor foe o’ mine
But wishes me to stay.

What I hae done through lack o’wit
I never, never, can recall
I hope ye’re a my friends as yet.
Goodnight and joy be with ye all.”

Reportedly written by Sandy Armstrong on the eve of his execution (14th November 1600), nowadays it’s often known as The Parting Glass. According to one source, prior to Burns writing “Auld Lang Syne”, it was the most popular song in Scotland. Sung here by Tommy Makem & Liam Clancy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chOiVoScz8A

[Mojo47]

Nice YouTube video and another book to search for.So many opinions  regarding different aspects of the reivers and border life.
The Reivers by Alistair Moffat is the only book I’ve read on the subject so far and it looks like I need to read a lot more.
Keep the opinions , suggestions etc coming.They’re all great!

[RuthieB]

I also recommend The Steel Bonnets by George MacDonald Fraser; I'm descended from the Little family. If you're fictionally inclined then PF Chisholm's series on Sir Robert Carey (real life deputy warden of the East March and later Warden of the Middle March) and his attempts to subdue the lawlessness is excellent.

[Skoosh]

In todays National, John Purser debunks a couple of myths about the tartan in the first of two essays. "The cloth has been associated with Scotland for at least 2000 years!" using archaeological evidence & cloth's not a great survivor! Looking forward to next week's. 

Skoosh.

[Elwyn Soutter]

It’s drifting slightly from the subject of the Reivers, but Hugh Trevor-Roper’s “The invention of Scotland”  adeptly deals with some of the great claims and myths about Scotland.  There is an excellent chapter called “The sartorial myth” which deals with the origins of the kilt and some claims by clans to have worn specific tartans for a thousand years or more. Many paintings depict various different tartans allegedly worn at Culloden and elsewhere.  Trevor-Roper says: “Contemporary evidence concerning the rebellion of 1745 – whether pictorial, sartorial or literary – shows no differentiation of clans, no continuity of “setts.” The only way in which a Highlander’s loyalty could be discerned was not by his tartan, but by the cockade in his bonnet.”  All the Highlanders on both sides of the conflict wore more or less the same plaid, and couldn’t tell each other apart by their clothing at all. Hence the cockade.