Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc

[Mojo47]

https://clancarrutherssociety.org/2018/11/12/clan-carruthers-how-to-wear-highland-and-lowland-dress/amp/

Hi,

Thanks for the input.I found this interesting article regarding Highland, lowland and border dress.I think we are pretty much all agreed on no kilts, no tartans etc.
The article does mention the 1500s document on the ‘unruly’ clans.Or Clannis of the borders. In my opinion, it was probably worded so out of convenience or lack of knowledge of border families.Of course, many of these border clans now use this document as proof of their clan status.Thoughts?
I will endeavor to do more research on the clothing front!
As for coats of arms, I have seen some evidence of these, but wonder if they were used by the heidmen only? This made me wonder whether or not these clan societies would be better using something based on these as an identifier, rather than the highland style clan crest?
As for movies.Although good fun to watch, people so often believe what they see as true. The same for the works of Sir Walter Scott etc.Some people never seem to raise questions about what they see or hear, which is really where this discussion grew out of!!

Mojo

[Skoosh]

A fair amount of Brigadoonery here, nothing to prevent yourself from getting the "Mojo" tartan made up! 
  The bonnets, for example, worn in some of these tartan drama productions look totally unfit for purpose.  Scots bonnets were worn at least from the 16th century & the earliest bonnet-makers Incorporation dates from around that time. Kilmarnock & Stewarton were noted for their bonnets & are probably still at it?
 A good source for info' on Scots stuff is,

     https://electricscotland.com/ 

Bests,
Skoosh.

[Mojo47]

Thanks Skoosh,

I think I’ll hold fire on the Mojo tartan.Maud mightn’t like it!
I’ve just had a quick look at the Electric Scotland site and it seems to have lots of useful info.Thanks!!
I think I’ve got enough opinions, reading recommendations etc to keep me busy for some time to come.It is probably best to draw this topic to a close for the time being.
My 7x great grandfather was a Little and I think there are connections to Johnstones through a great aunt. My reading into the Littles(what little available!)is what started off all these questions about clans, kilts etc.
Anyway, I want to thank everyone again for their opinions.I’ve found them all very useful. Thank you.

Mojo

[Skoosh]

Good luck with that kid!

Slainte'
Skoosh.

[deebel]

My roots are from Middlebie in Dumfriesshire. I suppose being a Bell I am descended from serious Reivers.  "The Bloody Bells of Middlebie" as they were known.

Border Reivers were completely fair minded. They always stole the same amount of sheep from both the Scots and the English!

I would commend the Dumfries and Galloway Family History Society. They have very useful archives.

 https://dgfhs.org.uk/

Membership online is only a few quid and the newsletter has some interesting articles.

GGGGfather was a Weaver from Middlebie moving to Carlisle. The family were a few generations there then my grandfather moved to Sanquhar to work as a miner.

deebel

[Mojo47]

Hi Deebel,

I have just joined the family history society you mention. At the moment they're on lockdown like everyone else, so I'll have to wait a while for more info.
Thanks for your help!

[MANDY61]

The clan system was just another name for 'family' but went that bit further by standing by one another. The reivers would join forces against an enemy and would also fight alongside their own enemies. The Johnstone's were my ancestors and married into the Armstrong family, the Armstrongs and Johnstones were great enemies, My x5 great grandfather was an Armstrong, his wife my x5 great grandmother was a Johnstone. The Johnstone's and Armstrongs certainly had chiefs, or lairds. Gilnockie Castle was the seat of the Armstrongs of Liddesdale and Lochwood Tower was the seat of the Johnstones. The Johnstone's became lairds, a marquis and members of parliament.

The sites below give a little more info.

http://www.scotlandinoils.com/clan/Clan-Johnstone.html

http://www.greatscottishclans.com/clans/armstrong.php

[Mojo47]

Hi,

Thanks for your response.You have a heritage that you can be proud of.

Regarding opinions etc. It does seem that these days many people are running around in tartan kilts with clan crests and so on.

If I’m not mistaken clan means something like children of and not family.These original question was to try and get a consensus of opinion to help me sort the wheat from the chaff.

These are some conclusions:

The border reivers would have not referred to themselves as clans.They were ‘riding families’.Some people appear to cling to the ‘17 unruly clans’ document as proof.Surely there would be hundreds if they were clans like the Highland ones?

They had ‘Heidmen’, which yes functioned like chiefs but we’re not chiefs in the ‘clan’ sense.

Lairds existed without a doubt.These appear to have been probably large scale land owners and not have the same powers as English Lords.I could be wrong on this though.

I feel part of the problem is that post Walter Scott’s recreation of What Scottishness is, the culture of the peoples of the border has been replaced with tartans,kilts and bagpipes etc.These were all Highland Scottish customs.The highlanders we’re often feared hated and certainly not trusted by Lowland Scots.

With this in mind, wouldn’t be better to try and remember and preserve the border culture as it was rather than replace it with something that would have been quite alien to these folk?
If you think about it, isn’t it a kind of cultural appropriation to adopt Highland culture as a Lowland one? And in doing so betraying the very ancestry we are trying to uncover and preserve?

Some people also have romantic notions of what reivers actually were.These days they would be called gangsters.Extortion, blackmail (protection rackets) theft and murder.All hallmarks of top class gangsters?

I think in our quest to find out about our ancestry we also want to find some sense of belonging.In doing so, there seems to be a danger of distorting the truth of the past and using historical bias in our judgment.Trying to gather lots of opinions to help form my own has been part of this question.Not to offend or upset.These opinions should not be set in stone either as when more information and new ideas come to light.Opinions should be adjusted taking everything into account.

[Forfarian]

What an excellent summary. Very well said.