Author Topic: Brickwall tracing John Howell Lambeth circa 1850s  (Read 1574 times)

Offline Fredsboy

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Brickwall tracing John Howell Lambeth circa 1850s
« on: Sunday 02 February 20 17:53 GMT (UK) »
John Howell is my GGGF and the earliest record I can find is 1881 Census living at at Mina Court, Blackfriars (28 Years a general labourer born Surrey Southwark). He is with 'wife' Ellen although I don't think they ever married. After her death in childbirth in 1888 he married Esther Thurbin and the marriage record has him a bachelor (not widower) and father William, a fish salesman.

All Ellen's family lived around the small area between Waterloo and Blackfriars Bridge Roads.

I suspect John is the same John Howell aged 4 in the 1861 Census at 29 Jurston Street. In the 1851 census The Howells are at 23 Gun Street (a stones throw) with Head William and wife Mary, so I have been digging deeper to eliminate that line.

By 1861 William is no longer in the census. Charles 15, Anne 11 and William 8 are all by William and Mary (maiden name Murphy). Frederick 6, John 4 and James 2 do not come up at GRO or other records as MMN Murphy and I cannot find any birth or baptisms records that definitively identify these three boys. Peculiarly, in May of 1861 Mary Howell (maiden name Murphy) of 29 Jurston Street did have another child, Mary, with William, a costermonger, named as father. There was a lodger, Margaret Murphy , in 1861 who may have been related.

I cannot definitively identify the family in 1871, although by now the older children would probably have flown the nest and there are various similar name/age Charles etc. locally lodging at various addresses.

I am local and willing to plough through non on line records etc. if anyone can help with hints and tips what to do/check next. You have all been so helpful to date with many heads better than one.
Aguirra, Howell, Weatherby, Mady

Offline Pennines

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Re: Brickwall tracing John Howell Lambeth circa 1850
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 02 February 20 18:10 GMT (UK) »
Fredsboy -- just a quick immediate reaction -- if the John you think is yours on 1861 census aged 4 -- then this doesn't match your title of circa 1850 - nor does it fit in with the age of the 28 year old John in 1881.

Are you sure of your dates please?
Places of interest;
Lancashire, West Yorkshire, Southern Ireland, Scotland.

Offline Vimto

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Re: Brickwall tracing John Howell Lambeth circa 1850
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 02 February 20 18:29 GMT (UK) »
Hi Fredsboy

I don't know if you already knew this. The surname of Ellen (John's first 'wife') was Weatherby, according to the birth register for daughter Isabella in Q4, 1880.

Paul

Offline Mabel Bagshawe

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Re: Brickwall tracing John Howell Lambeth circa 1850
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 02 February 20 18:32 GMT (UK) »
Could this be John in 1871 -  lodger and  labourer b Southwark

Class RG10; Piece 596; Folio 52; Page 43


Offline Fredsboy

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Re: Brickwall tracing John Howell Lambeth circa 1850
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 02 February 20 20:17 GMT (UK) »
Thanks all so far. He dies in 1900 and the death cert has him aged 42 suggesting circa 1858 birth. This ties in with the 1861 census. I don't trust any of the ages on the census. Looking at the family I can verify, ages vary tremendously across census records, so in 1881 he would have been 23 odd. I double checked original for 1881 and it says 28. Could be a typo for 23 or could be that he fibbed to seem older, he wasn't the father of Ellen's daughter Mary in that census. My post Title is wrong, my typo, I meant 1850s, good spot, not sure if or how i can edit it.

Re Class RG10; Piece 596; Folio 52; Page 43. This is a good match re age and address (couple of streets away from 'base') and I have it on a post it on the wall to try and develop further - I will research the occupants for any better links.

Thank you again, keep them coming, helpful to question my assumptions
Aguirra, Howell, Weatherby, Mady

Offline Fredsboy

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Re: Brickwall tracing John Howell Lambeth circa 1850
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 02 February 20 20:19 GMT (UK) »
Apologies, re Ellen. I have that side of the family pretty much nailed now which is why the howell side is so frustrating.
P
Aguirra, Howell, Weatherby, Mady

Offline Pennines

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Re: Brickwall tracing John Howell Lambeth circa 1850
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 02 February 20 21:09 GMT (UK) »
Fredsboy -- as you are the original poster you can just amend the title.

Often we need to bear in mind that people in the 1800s had no reason to remember their real age - they didn't celebrate 'special' birthdays as we do today -- nor did they get a pension at 60 or 65. So I suspect they often just thought 'I am about x'

I confess to not looking at the census records, but from what you say - if he was older than Ellen, then yes - he may well have tried to fit in with her age. The enumerators didn't check that the info they were given - or was written on individual forms (if a householder could write), was correct.

Places of interest;
Lancashire, West Yorkshire, Southern Ireland, Scotland.

Offline Fredsboy

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Re: Brickwall tracing John Howell Lambeth circa 1850s
« Reply #7 on: Monday 03 February 20 14:07 GMT (UK) »
I have a baptism that may be 'my' John Howell, but struggling to find any supportive records>:

John Howell Surrey Newington, Trinity 19  bn 2 Dec 1856 to William and Mary at Chatham Place, Locksfields. Locksfields is the area at the top of Walworth/Old Kent Road .  Any help/thoughts greatly appreciated.

P
Aguirra, Howell, Weatherby, Mady

Offline Fredsboy

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Re: Brickwall tracing John Howell Lambeth circa 1850s
« Reply #8 on: Friday 07 February 20 19:34 GMT (UK) »
maybe i asked the wrong question or the right question in the wrong way. I can can trace William and Mary and the older kids and have birth certificates with MMN Murphy. By 1861 William is off the scene and there are three younger boys, Frederick, John and James with nothing at GRO by MMN Murphy. Them Mary pops up in in 1861 with father William and MMN Murphy.
If William was 'away' (a lot of the family were at that time) and another man was around I'd still expect to find the three Murphy MMN , just no dad or a different dad.
I appreciate ages were not that important and answers for Census and birth certificates were 'flexible' - but nothing? Then all six(mum dad and younger 4) disappear by the 1871 Census. The older kids were work age. Maybe William never came back. There are plenty of Mary Howells in clink and as servants - would the kids have been split up - put in same children's home?
Any thoughts gratefully received to get me over this hurdle.
P
Aguirra, Howell, Weatherby, Mady