Brickwall tracing John Howell Lambeth circa 1850s

[wivenhoe]

"..John Howell is my GGGF "

Who is the son / daughter of John HOWELL.....your great grandparent.?

Can you please name this great grandparent......birth date and place.....their later marriage details.

[Fredsboy]

Hi Wivenhoe,
John Howell had five or so children by Elinor (Ellen) Weatherby, there is no evidence they ever married. After her death he did marry Esther Thurbin and they had a child. One of his daughters by Ellen, Isobella Howell 20 SEP 1880, married Harry Waye 7 Sep 1902 in Dartford. They had twelve children including Alice (1907) who was my nan.
P

[Fredsboy]

Oh, Elinor (Ellen) was born 19th August 1853 at 6 Victoria Place, Lambeth. M Mary Ann Weatherby nee Aguerra. F John Weatherby

[[Ray]]

[ Copied from prev post ] . . . . .     
"Oh, Elinor (Ellen) was born 19th August 1853 at 6 Victoria Place, Lambeth. M Mary Ann Weatherby nee Aguerra"     
[ end of copy ]     



Recorded as . . . . .
WEATHERBY, ELINOR         AGUIRRA     
 GRO Reference: 1853  S Quarter in LAMBETH  Volume 01D  Page 228
 
WEATHERBY, JANE            AGUIRRA     
 GRO Reference: 1855  S Quarter in LAMBETH  Volume 01D  Page 211

[Fredsboy]

Thx Guys, as I say, I have the Aguirra/Weatherby side pretty much nailed - its the the Howell side that is a mystery - even more so as I have so much info from 50 years earlier

[[Ray]]

" Oh, Elinor (Ellen) was born 19th August 1853 at .............................. nee Aguerra "

Whilst checking detail to verify info, actually just making sure it wasn't a typo?     


We don't have the info you have built up, so we have to replicate research.


 

[Fredsboy]

Thx folks.
I’m very new to this but I think the picture I have built on A*&£#Y (can i say it?) is public, and I have indicated where I have primary records and where I’m not sure.

[Dundee]

We don't have the info you have built up, so we have to replicate research.

Not necessarily.  As far as I can see the request is for information on the births/baptisms of the stray children and what happened to them...

........Charles 15, Anne 11 and William 8 are all by William and Mary (maiden name Murphy). Frederick 6, John 4 and James 2 do not come up at GRO or other records as MMN Murphy and I cannot find any birth or baptisms records that definitively identify these three boys.

Fredsboy can you post a link to your tree on Ancestry please?

I have been looking at these baptisms which you may have seen and I can't link them to a family in 1861, except for yours.

John Frederick HOWELL born 1854, John HOWELL born 1856, and Owen James HOWELL born 1858.  All sons of William a general dealer and Mary, baptised at Newington St Mary, Southwark.  I cannot see birth registrations for any of these children.  Father William is also described as a general dealer when Mary was baptised in 1850 at Lambeth.

Debra 

[Fredsboy]

Thx Debra, here you go https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/165514743/person/332154918208/facts.

I haven't offered up my hunches as I didn't want to introduce bias but I have a strong gut feeling that John Frederick Howell Baptised Dec 10 1854 St Mary Newington to William and Mary of Surrey Court, Blackfriars Road is the Frederick aged 6 in 1861 Census at 29 Jurston. I also believe he is the same Frederick that appears in the 1881 Census at 22 Gun Street having married Victoria Jane Humpries, who goes by the name Jane. I just can't verify it.

I am also pretty certain that John Howell baptism Newington 2 Dec 1856 to William and Mary of Chatham Place, Locksfields is Freds brother, my GGGF.

Owen James I hadn't spotted before (wood for trees) so thank you for that one. Holland Place is geographically good. The family seemed to be constantly on the move from houses being demolished for the railways - maybe knowing the railways were disrupting meant rent was cheaper. I am building a very good picture of that part of North Lambeth mid C19th.

There is a Frederick Paul Howell Bn 1854 and an Owen Alfred Howell Bn 1861 both MMN Probert. These are the Grosvenor Square (St George Hanover) Howells that are very similar. Hannah Probert married Valentine Fred Howell and I have sufficient details on their family to differentiate.

Odd that Mary Murphy went to the trouble of registering but Fred, John and James are invisible, maybe William was not the father but the double 'shame' of not baptising was a step too far. I have some Glaswegian friends that tell me tell me stories of damnation if the kids go to the wrong school.

Thanks you all for your time and attention - between us I'm sure we'll crack it. I still live locally so I am happy to plough through written records, graveyards etc. I just haven't learned the next bit after internet searching. But I am reading up..