Author Topic: wch spylt himselfe  (Read 1986 times)

Offline GrahamSimons

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Re: wch spylt himselfe
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 15 February 20 11:25 GMT (UK) »
....and here's another cryptic comment in the Greystoke burial register, this time from 1769:

Mary Johnson of Berrier, wch dy'd at Great Blencowe, an innocent young woman

Has anyone an idea what that comment might mean? There are no others like it in the register; a few women are identified as a young woman and a very few as unmarried.
Simons Barrett Jaffray Waugh Langdale Heugh Meade Garnsey Evans Vazie Mountcure Glascodine Parish Peard Smart Dobbie Sinclair....
in Stirlingshire, Roxburghshire; Bucks; Devon; Somerset; Northumberland; Carmarthenshire; Glamorgan

Offline ThrelfallYorky

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Re: wch spylt himselfe
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 15 February 20 17:10 GMT (UK) »
I hope it wasn't that being "innocent" was so unusual? OH suggests that she might have been what in my youth was called "simple"?
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Offline GrahamSimons

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Re: wch spylt himselfe
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 15 February 20 17:35 GMT (UK) »
I hope it wasn't that being "innocent" was so unusual? OH suggests that she might have been what in my youth was called "simple"?
Elsewhere in the register, there's someone described as an Idiot, so I don't think so...... I wondered whether she had come to grief in some way?
Simons Barrett Jaffray Waugh Langdale Heugh Meade Garnsey Evans Vazie Mountcure Glascodine Parish Peard Smart Dobbie Sinclair....
in Stirlingshire, Roxburghshire; Bucks; Devon; Somerset; Northumberland; Carmarthenshire; Glamorgan

Offline Mart 'n' Al

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Re: wch spylt himselfe
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 15 February 20 17:57 GMT (UK) »
Until the 1881 census, there was a difference between "Imbecile or Idiot", and "Lunatic".  Meanings change.

Martin


Offline GrahamSimons

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Re: wch spylt himselfe
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 15 February 20 18:05 GMT (UK) »
Until the 1881 census, there was a difference between "Imbecile or Idiot", and "Lunatic".  Meanings change.

Martin
This one was 1797, which would pre-date the official Census definitions, I think.
Simons Barrett Jaffray Waugh Langdale Heugh Meade Garnsey Evans Vazie Mountcure Glascodine Parish Peard Smart Dobbie Sinclair....
in Stirlingshire, Roxburghshire; Bucks; Devon; Somerset; Northumberland; Carmarthenshire; Glamorgan

Offline Bookbox

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Re: wch spylt himselfe
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 15 February 20 18:44 GMT (UK) »
I wonder if she had been hauled up before the church courts and found not guilty? Or been unjustly libelled or accused? Just a thought, pure speculation.

Offline BenRalph

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Re: wch spylt himselfe
« Reply #15 on: Sunday 16 February 20 06:22 GMT (UK) »
....and here's another cryptic comment in the Greystoke burial register, this time from 1769:

Mary Johnson of Berrier, wch dy'd at Great Blencowe, an innocent young woman

Has anyone an idea what that comment might mean? There are no others like it in the register; a few women are identified as a young woman and a very few as unmarried.
Maybe the innocent is to do with a sexual assault. She would be innocent of being 'unpure' if she was sexually assaulted as it wasbt her fault.

I've never seen such a comment before.

Offline Sloe Gin

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Re: wch spylt himselfe
« Reply #16 on: Sunday 16 February 20 13:15 GMT (UK) »
OH suggests that she might have been what in my youth was called "simple"?

This, I think.  From the OED:

innocent, adj. and n.

adj. 3 b. Deficient in intelligence or sense; silly, half-witted, imbecile: cf. B. 3b. Now dialect.

1548   Hall's Vnion: Henry VI f. clxix   That he was either a childe, whiche had nede of norice..or an innocent creature, whiche muste be ruled by a tutor.
1548   Hall's Vnion: Edward IV f. ccx   He was a man of no great wit, suche as men comonly call an Innocent man, neither a foole, neither very wyse.
1688   in J. Barmby Churchwardens' Accts. Pittington (1888) 342   To John Dods for keeping the innocent boy, 1l.
1706   Phillips's New World of Words (new ed.)    Innocent, inoffensive,..harmless, also simple, or silly.
a1825   R. Forby Vocab. E. Anglia (1830) (at cited word)   ‘An innocent man’..is an extremely common expression for a silly fellow.


n. 3.  (a) A guileless, simple, or unsuspecting person; one devoid of cunning or artifice.  (b) One wanting in ordinary knowledge or intelligence; a simpleton, a silly fellow; a half-wit, an idiot.

c1386   G. Chaucer Canon's Yeoman's Prol. & Tale 523   O sely preest, o sely Innocent With coueitise anon thou shalt be blent.
1578   J. Lyly Euphues f. 34   In bodye deformed, in minde foolishe, an innocent borne.
1593   R. Harvey Philadelphus 91   That he might do what he list in the kingdome under such an innocent and milksop.
1598   Faversham Par. Reg. (MS.)    Buryed, Margery, an innocent from the Abby.
1694   R. L'Estrange Fables (ed. 6) ccccxxxviii. 475   There was just such another Innocent as this, in my Father's Family.
1706   Phillips's New World of Words (new ed.)    An Innocent, an Idiot, or Ninny, a silly, half-witted Person.
1814   W. Scott Waverley I. ix. 123   ‘He is an innocent, sir’, said the butler... Waverley learned..from this colloquy; that in Scotland..a natural fool [was called] an innocent. 
1838   G. P. R. James Robber I. vi. 118   The man is a poor innocent whom I have known this many a year.
UK census content is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk  Transcriptions are my own.

Offline GrahamSimons

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Re: wch spylt himselfe
« Reply #17 on: Sunday 16 February 20 13:20 GMT (UK) »
Thank you for that: looks very much like the best interpretation! So as suggested, a bit smarter than my "idiot."
Simons Barrett Jaffray Waugh Langdale Heugh Meade Garnsey Evans Vazie Mountcure Glascodine Parish Peard Smart Dobbie Sinclair....
in Stirlingshire, Roxburghshire; Bucks; Devon; Somerset; Northumberland; Carmarthenshire; Glamorgan