Author Topic: Mystery Man Edward Townsend Foley  (Read 8883 times)

Offline majm

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Re: Mystery Man Edward Townsend Foley
« Reply #162 on: Tuesday 10 December 19 08:34 GMT (UK) »
.....  As for ETF, he was a gold miner;  and he fronted and took the rap for a brothel.
The suffragettes would have said he was responsible, directly or indirectly.   And the temperance ladies would have ... er ... castigated him. ;).   Until another candidate turns up, he looks like it. ;) ;) ;)

Of course, the charge was 'for having filthy premises' and was upon Edward Foley of 20 Exeter Place and he was fined £2 and costs.  https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13524931  SMH 16 Sept 1882.  There were 2 floors, and only 3 rooms...  So, likely upstairs had a series of curtains and downstairs was for the spruking   

Maud Alice's father could well have been the carrier, and you have mentioned earlier that Mary is mentioned on some of her sons' bdm records ... so it is possible that the recorded father on Maud's NSW BDM record is actually her biological father, and perhaps Mary delivered her baby at 20 Exeter Place because she was taken there by her husband or a family member with contractions.  Perhaps even escorted there by one of her older children? 

Yes, there are newspapers notices showing a Thomas MINTON in September 1880 was not prepared to accept responsibility for any Debts contracted by his wife.  https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13468650  SMH 23 Sept 1880 etc   
BUT remember, he put notices in paper back in 1877 and then lodged the children as Destitute before reclaiming them.  There's no sign of the children being lodged as destitute in 1880 or at any time after that is there?  I have not ever noticed a retraction from any male lodging their 'I will not be responsible for any debts contracted by my wife'  in any trove searchings or back in the days when I was going the The Mitchell to look up the actual original newspaper copies for any local history researchings.

If this Mary MURPHY was one of my ancestors,  I would simply note that 'After Mary has provided the information for the birth and infant death of her daughter Maud Alice, Mary is lost to the official records at the present time, despite diligent and deep searchings for her by many'.  I cannot see that it is valid to nominate ETF or any other Edward Foley as the likely father of Maud Alice based on the depth of searchings undertaken by some very experienced researchers based in New Zealanders as well as Australia .

JM
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Offline majm

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Re: Mystery Man Edward Townsend Foley
« Reply #163 on: Tuesday 10 December 19 08:55 GMT (UK) »
1882 Assessment Book
Thomas MINTON was the tenant at 39 Corban Street,  the Landlord/owner was Christian HENSE, and the rates were on the valuation of £33  It was of brick with singled roof, 3 floors, 4 rooms.  Christian HENSE was landlord/lowner of 39, 41 and 43 Corban Street at that time.   Christian HENSE was a Music Teacher.   Corban Street was in Surry Hills, walking distance from Exeter Place.

JM
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Offline majm

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Re: Mystery Man Edward Townsend Foley
« Reply #164 on: Tuesday 10 December 19 22:54 GMT (UK) »
Re Musicians, particularly Christian HENSE and  Vagabonds …1878 

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18823602 Maitland mercury 13 July 1878
….. and Christian HENSE for being street musicians and refusing to desist playing …..  Mr Julian THOMAS (the Vagabond) deposed ….   …    There’s the surname THOMAS again…

NSW ER 1878 EAST SYDNEY
Christian HENSE, freehold Corben Street

So back in 1868

SMH 21 Nov 1868 page 1 Marriages has Christian HENSE marriage.
  https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13175953  Riley Street ... and that's Surry Hills of course...

May I mention that Dr Bailey, Bishop of the Free Church of England in NSW has been discussed several times at RChat, and I have usually noted that it seems he ran a marriage shop in that district. 


http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/bailey-william-1731

one of the threads
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=587437.0

BUT forward to 1882
Re the Sept 1882 charge on Edward FOLEY … it was NOT regarding the conducting of a brothel.  It was regarding the physical condition of the premises.  It is likely the Inspector of Nuisances had inspected the premises.   
Yes, it is likely that 20 Exeter Place may have been a brothel, but that is NOT the charge for which the court imposed a fine of £2.

Re Inspector of Nuisances… perhaps there’s correspondence archived re HENSE or MINTON or FOLEY or musicians inconveniencing local residents or … a list of candidates who could have infected Mary MINTON nee MURPHY ….
http://archives.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/Entity.aspx?Path=%5CAgency%5C75


JM
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Offline odysseyov

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Re: Mystery Man Edward Townsend Foley
« Reply #165 on: Wednesday 11 December 19 04:30 GMT (UK) »
Hi JM.   Lots of interesting sidelights there;  not sure that any of it applies.   T Minton was in NZ until 1872 and then spent a couple of years in Victoria, so would not have had much to do with Christian Hense or Dr. Bailey's marriage Mill.
Perhaps if you checked out this link:
https://sydney.edu.au/paradisec/australharmony/register-M-2.php
it would give you a clearer idea of the type of musician TM was.   I don't think Street musicians or German Bands quite fits the bill.   He was also a teacher of music;  taught for some time in Dunedin (see ads on Papers Past) so renting from music teacher Hense probably makes sense.   
I agree ETF was not charged with brothel keeping; but given the comments throughout this thread that Exeter Place was a pretty grim area, it's hard not to reach that conclusion, especially as the act under which he would have been charged is specifically aimed at controlling "infection and contagious diseases" and he could have been required to whitewash the entire area (see Hansard).  Especially as the labour value of L2 today is $1798 - not such a great amount, I imagine considering today's wages.(https://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/australiacompare/relativevalue.php.
I checked out the archives you recommended but the relevant ones are not yet digitised so couldn't come up with any additional names and since I don't live in Sydney (or NSW for that matter) it's going to be a while before I can do anything more on that front.   In the interim I've checked out all of TM and MM's children.   BDM records all show name of mother and father.   And, of course, In memoriams went into the SMH for a couple of years after TM's death.   Mother's name definitely known but no-one wanted to recognise her.
As for the preponderence of Thomases - at least two surnames, Letitia's husband and the German Band - I guess with Sydney's population at around 29000 in that era and many of them crammed into the small area of the Rocks, Darlinghurst, Surrey Hills, etc, I suppose it would be hard not to have multiples.   It certainly seems like that when doing a name search on Trove.
Harking back to other valid points you've made.   The trove article that seemed to mention Letitia when I increased and cleared it became Hortensia  :-\ ;
and in case you haven't been able to find it, in 1889 TM apparently rented 2 places in Rockdale;  it appears in trove as notification of assessment  (SMH18/5/1889) Lot 1, Sec 1, and Lot 36, Sec 1, Hastings, Ellery's sub-division.
Also, The Age (Melb) 23/06/1875 TM advertised that he would not be responsible for any debts his wife might incur after that date.   Their last daughter was born 28th April, 1876 at No. 2 off Washington St, which just fits the appropriate time for M to have returned and an infant to be conceived.   No syphillis with that one but no wonder they left Melbourne.   I suspect after the third time he really meant it. :( 
MINTON, MURPHY,  SHEPHARD/SHEPHERD, WHITEOAK, WONNOCOTT,
WOOD, HARRIS.


Offline odysseyov

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Re: Mystery Man Edward Townsend Foley
« Reply #166 on: Wednesday 11 December 19 04:49 GMT (UK) »
 :D :D :D :D :D
I've just realised - those properties for which TM was to be rated in 1889 are probably gravesites???
They cost L1.10s.0d ea.   It could just be --- or have been --- the last resting place of Mary and her poor babe ...   JM you would know - could that be it? ???
MINTON, MURPHY,  SHEPHARD/SHEPHERD, WHITEOAK, WONNOCOTT,
WOOD, HARRIS.

Offline CassT

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Re: Mystery Man Edward Townsend Foley
« Reply #167 on: Wednesday 11 December 19 05:19 GMT (UK) »
Just had a look at TROVE and it appears "Hastings Estate" was a land development  near Botany Bay, there are adds in SMH 1880 /1879  for the lots of land. I dont think councils make you pay rates for a burial plot, however i might be wrong.

Cass

Offline majm

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Re: Mystery Man Edward Townsend Foley
« Reply #168 on: Wednesday 11 December 19 06:21 GMT (UK) »
£2 in 1882 was 40/-  and there were married men living Chippendale and Darlington who were working for wages of 10/- per diem so their wages over a week would be £3.  I can also assure you that 10/- p.d. was going rate for some married men, coal miners in the Hunter district.   

Anastasia was the Christian name for the 32 year old patient at the Asylum, 
Source : the article mentioned they would exhume the next day.  So look for follow up in the newspaper’s edition of the ‘next day’  and find clean copy where it mentions her name. 

Christian HENSE in 1878 is clearly shown on the electoral roll as being eligible to be enrolled due to being qualified as having FREEHOLD in Corben Street.   In 1882 he is shown as the OWNER/LANDLORD of three properties in that same street, and your Thomas MINTON is his tenant in one of those three.  Further, Christian HENSE of that address  is listed at Sands as a Music Teacher.  So I would suggest that both Thomas MINTON and Christian HENSE would have similar professional standards in respect of music, afterall owning even one property in in Surry Hills was not an opportunity many musicians would have achieved in those decades, and HENSE had three.

Of course, 20 Exeter Place also had an owner/landlord and that was William FLETCHER.  Perhaps he was the carrier.   

Yes, agree with Cass re  cemeteries and burial plots, definitely not individually rated by local government councils.  I think you will find that …  agh …  … in those decades cemeteries were administered by Boards, the members of which were qualified to be Trustees, and the biggest cemetery was at Rookwood, not at Botany. 

I am sure that find the parents of Mary MINTON nee MURPHY you need to move away from seeking out Edward Townsend FOLEY and concentrate of Letitia THOMAS nee MURPHY, or perhaps the possibility of a militiary NZ connection via that John FRENCH alias John MURPHY born at Parramatta 1844, afterall, many a child of a soldier was known by his mum's surname rather than his dad's  :)  perhaps the easiest option at present is to save up the pennies and obtain the Vic BDM digitised image of the d.c. for Letitia, as it seems likely it names her parents.   

JM on my e-reader.  Sorry, cannot do live links to offer sources for above, but I can assure you that Trove will be the secondary source, while my longstanding  knowledge of the contents of my family private papers and my decades of research validating much of those records will be my original primary source.     
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Offline sparrett

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Re: Mystery Man Edward Townsend Foley
« Reply #169 on: Wednesday 11 December 19 06:41 GMT (UK) »

 
   perhaps the easiest option at present is to save up the pennies and obtain the Vic BDM digitised image of the d.c. for Letitia, as it seems likely it names her parents.   

 

Reply #139 on page 16 this thread as posted by Jamjar gives the death and details of Letitia (nee MURPHY)
The parents stated there will possibly have been furnished by one of her children and may or may not be accurate.

There are births on the Victorian index for parent couples-

James MURPHY and Ann (variations) DOLAN (variations)
John MURPHY and Margaret DOOLAN (variations)

The earliest listed in 1846 and the latest mid 1870's

Sue

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Offline majm

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Re: Mystery Man Edward Townsend Foley
« Reply #170 on: Wednesday 11 December 19 07:40 GMT (UK) »
Yes, Sue's suggestion makes much better sense  :)

Re the 1889 article about Thomas MINTON and land and burial plots ...

Rockdale Council’s notice in SMH 18 May 1889 announces two rates to be applied to properties in several council wards, including  Scarboro Ward.  Among those named in that particular ward is a Thomas MINTON. 
Two rates announced, and one is for lighting and Rockdale set their rates at 2d in the £.   … as in street lighting.  I doubt that all those properties listed across those several wards would be for any cemetery and I also doubt any council would have resolved to provide lighting for burial plots. So Thomas MINTON had two lots, each at £1.10.- so that’s £3, so he owed 4d or so, perhaps 6d for the street lighting and of course 3/- for the general rates.  I think no more than 3/6d in total.   
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13734512

If you look at the entire page you will see other municipal councils making public announcements and for example Macdonaldtown Council’s rates announcement is about lighting the streets with gas and that rate was set at 3d in the £.

PS,  I have fathings and ha'pennies in my collection here.   :)

Add ...
:D :D :D :D :D
I've just realised - those properties for which TM was to be rated in 1889 are probably gravesites???
They cost L1.10s.0d ea.   It could just be --- or have been --- the last resting place of Mary and her poor babe ...   JM you would know - could that be it? ???

   

Maud Alice was laid to rest in the Presbyterian Section of Rookwood in December 1882.  To save everyone going back through this thread, it is 6B, Zone A,  4244 as per Rookwood General's website
http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/deceased-search-engine

JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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