Death of Thomas Arrowsmith

[fastfusion]

Hi there folks. I am seeking a provable solution to the death of my great grandfather Thomas Arrowsmith.,and, additional information regarding some of the other folk mentioned. To give some background to this I will say that "Tom" was the last born child of Edward and Elizabeth Makinson Baptism 28 May 1882 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England. He married Violet Hodkinson [ Marriages Dec 1904   Leigh    8c392 ] and had numerous children including my grandfather [now deceased]. The last born child was found in 1939 in a mental institution which somehow leads to my great grandmother remarrying to John Cox [ Marriages Jun 1945  Horwich    8c974  ]. This is cert reference I believe to be one related to my great grandmother.....Deaths Jun 1955   Cox Violet    age 73    Bolton 10b614.;proving death 31st May 1955 and cremation 2nd June 1955.    The death of John Cox is at present assumed to be age 70 [b 1887 where? ] died Apr/Jun 1957 Bolton 10b611 with a probate suggesting death 11th June 1957 being of 526 Halliwell Rd Bolton announcing a John Cox butcher......but I can not find any substaining evidence.
  The other thought here is lack of a divorce record....
Now the tree on ancestry indicated 1929 as death, but unfortunately, as the census showed me there was a parallel family in Cheshire and the Thomas of Cheshire through his probate gives money to Frank; which co-incidently the name of my grandfather.  I have looked on freebmduk and done the maths against certs, I have looked on Lancs OPC without any success. I am not judging the tree on ancestry because the person who owns the tree came in from  a certain branch which was estranged to my branch so their assumption given the records available on ancestry would have linked to the Cheshire line.......      So anyone who has time to look at this please put your thoughts forward.  Thank you.

[KGarrad]

2 deaths stand out for me:

December qtr 1929
Bethnal Green Registration District     vol 1c, page 106
Arrowsmith, Thomas R     age 49

December qtr 1935
St Helens Registration District     vol 8b, page 890
Arrowsmith, Thomas       age 56




Age at death somewhat relies on the knowledge of the informer?

[fastfusion]

KGarrad> unfortunately Thomas didnt have a middle name , so the first one is out....  St Helens seems a little far from Bolton and Leigh.....  this chap was a skip and basket maker too poor to move away from district...... the St Helens one again reflects 1929 which is incorrect.....so i have to discount them.....

[KGarrad]

Bolton to St Helens is 20 miles.
Leigh to St Helens is 12 miles.

Seems close enough to me?

[rosie99]

Where do you have Violet in 1939 register and does it state whether she is married/widowed or divorced

[chempat]

Have  any got any of the children's marriage certificates to see if they claim their father as alive or dead?

The proposed death in 1935, St Helens, you have put:'the St Helens one again reflects 1929 which is incorrect.....so i have to discount them'   
Sorry, but I do not understand the 'reflects 1929' comment.

[chempat]

Free bmd has 3 Thomas Arrowsmiths born in 1882, all in the NorthWest.
1939 free search has 2 showing, one living in Suffolk,  Have you any information on him?
(Just trying to eliminate any strays).

[fastfusion]

Rosie> the 1939 has Violet Arrowsmith {crossed out} Cox at 57 Langshaw Road Bolton, f, 19th April 1884 Married Shop Asst Bread & Confectioner with son Jack Arrowsmith born 12 April 1914 Radio Salesman & Repair.    So given the marriage to John Cox...... the suggestion is that Thomas is still alive in 1939.......and dies sometime before 1945.?....given that the 1939 ration cards were effectually changed right up until end of WW2 suggesting the "Cox".
Chempat> I am discounting death year of ancestry tree .........Thomas didn't die in 1929 as Violet states she is still married in 1939.,therefore 1935 death is out at moment...  However I am open to the idea that he may have been in Suffolk, BUT, realistically I doubt its him.   Now I will show the following which shows Lancs BMD results >
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1882
Surname   Forename(s)   Mother's Maiden Name   Sub-District   Registers At   Reference
ARROWSMITH   Thomas   LEATHER   Culcheth   Wigan & Leigh   CUL/36/457
ARROWSMITH   Thomas   MAKINSON   Westleigh   Wigan & Leigh   WL/30/164 {target]
ARROWSMITH   Thomas A       Salford Greengate   Salford   GRE/136/93

So I believe the Arrowsmith[Leather} can't be the Suffolk entry......

Births Jun 1882   Arrowsmith    Thomas        Leigh    8c   262     [target]
Births Sep 1882  Arrowsmith    Thomas        Leigh    8c   250    
Births Dec 1882   Arrowsmith    Thomas        W. Derby    8b   482    
Births Dec 1882    Arrowsmith    Thomas Arthur    Salford    8d   91

So the Suffolk entry does have merit but cannot be proved at this moment......  the Anne Lomax in 1939 could be clue to proving by place of birth?? Does she possibly come from around Leigh or Bolton area? Her birth date was 6th April 1884 but in 1939 she is a widow and anc is not showing me enough information.... and there were 17 marriages of an Annie marrying a Lomax in Bolton alone between 1905 until 1939........but after looking at lancs opc I narrowed to four ....grrrrrrrr.   Then out of that I would put serious speculation to >
Marriage: 5 May 1906 St Matthew, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Samuel Lomax - 21, Labourer, Bachelor, 22 Topping St.
Elizabeth Ann Collier - 20, Confectioner, Spinster, 22 Topping St.
    Groom's Father: John Lomax, Joiner
    Bride's Father: William Collier, Machine Painter
    Witness: William Collier; Alice Casstles
    Married by Banns by: Albert Lewis Curate
   with a LOMAX   Samuel age65 in 1936 death Halliwell   Bolton   HALL/1A/488 1936
and my reasoning for this is I have Collier family further back in tree [ Edwards father was married to Collier ].....    but I have only done this from basis of "does Thomas go to Suffolk?"

With some thought here I realistically need to invest in the Arrowsmith/Cox marriage cert or find an image showing if Violet was widowed.......... as Thomas could have long life dying anywhere up to 1982.......? Another brick wall is divorce entries only go up to 1905 on FindMyPast so how does one find records after that year?

Births Dec 1922   Arrowsmith    Clifford   [ Hodkinson]    Bolton    8c   527 is the last born child.


As for information on marriage> my grandfathers 1st marriage happened before [Marriages Mar 1930   Arrowsmith Frank    Homer    Bolton 8c409] 1939 so the father Thomas is still alive........and second one> Marriages Sep 1943   Arrowsmith Frank- Wilson    Lancaster    8e1579 was an RO one because he divorced.  {Noting both Frank & Stella deceased, as with 1st wife and child}

[rosie99]

1939 has Violet Arrowsmith {crossed out} Cox at 57 Langshaw Road Bolton, f, 19th April 1884 Married Shop Asst Bread & Confectioner with son Jack Arrowsmith born 12 April 1914 Radio Salesman & Repair.   
So given the marriage to John Cox...... the suggestion is that Thomas is still alive in 1939.......and dies sometime before 1945.?....given that the 1939 ration cards were effectually changed right up until end of WW2 suggesting the "Cox".

The 1939 register was used by the NHS after the war and continued to be updated until the late 1900's.  You cannot guarantee that Violets husband was still alive just because she is entered as married in 1939 or he is not mentioned as deceased on his sons marriage certificate.  It would certainly be interesting to see what Violets 'status' was when she married John Cox.