Author Topic: Yorkshire man in Royal Scots Fusiliers WW1  (Read 1444 times)

Offline smithkei

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Yorkshire man in Royal Scots Fusiliers WW1
« on: Friday 08 November 19 07:26 GMT (UK) »
One of my relations was killed at Ypres in October 1914. According to UK Soldiers that died in the Great War on Ancestry he was in the Royal Scots Fusileers and was recruited at Rotherham, though he lived in Sheffield

I have a lot of other sources that show he was in that Regiment like Commonwealth Graves, De Ruvignys etc so I don’t want a load of research on him please.

Just a general question was it normal for people from South Yorkshire to end up in a Scots Regiment? Most others I’ve come across were in the KOYLI, West Yorkshire’s etc.

Private Tom Milner b Sheffield 1883, mother Brown. Reg no 6842

Thanks

Offline starcat

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Re: Yorkshire man in Royal Scots Fusiliers WW1
« Reply #1 on: Friday 08 November 19 08:57 GMT (UK) »
I think you will find men were sent were ever they were needed,  my Edwin Butler was  a Leicester boy but he served in the Connaught Rangers, I didnt understand this until someone  from the Connaught Rangers association told me it was common.

Offline IMBER

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Re: Yorkshire man in Royal Scots Fusiliers WW1
« Reply #2 on: Friday 08 November 19 09:18 GMT (UK) »
I'm no expert but while it's true that as the war continued men were sent to units where they were required this chap died very early in the war so it seems likely he was a regular or reservist.That being the case it seems likely that it was his Regiment of choice?

Imber
Skewis (Wales and Scotland), Ayers (Maidenhead, Berkshire), Hildreth (Berkshire)

Offline smithkei

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Re: Yorkshire man in Royal Scots Fusiliers WW1
« Reply #3 on: Friday 08 November 19 09:41 GMT (UK) »
Thanks. I just wasn’t sure if they had a choice or did the various regiments just set up stall in a town, or was it a general process then you were assigned a place??? I just saw your reply Starcat so likely he was just sent to the Royal Scots.


Offline MaxD

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Re: Yorkshire man in Royal Scots Fusiliers WW1
« Reply #4 on: Friday 08 November 19 10:00 GMT (UK) »
His service number indicates he joined the R Scots Fusiliers in 1901 (he would have been about 19) so the suggestion that he was a serving regular would seem to be the answer.  He was in 2nd Battalion which was in Gibraltar when war broke out.

Presumably you have identified his POW record of his burial?

(Soldiers died in the Great War has his battalion wrongly as 1st Battalion).

MaxD

I am Zoe Northeast, granddaughter of Maximilian Double.
 
It is with great difficulty I share with you that in the early hours of 07 August 2021, Maximilian passed away unexpectedly but peacefully.

With deep sadness,
Zoe



Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

Offline smithkei

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Re: Yorkshire man in Royal Scots Fusiliers WW1
« Reply #5 on: Friday 08 November 19 13:28 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for that Max, interesting.

In the 1901 census age 17 he is at home in Sheffield , with parents. Ok he could have joined up later that year.
1911 census married with his wife Nellie in Sheffield. General labourer.
i have a copy of their 1910 marriage certificate and there is no mention of army on there, he is a labour master which was a sub contractor.

I have 3 sources related to his death

1 UK Registers of Soldiers Effects 1901-29, Ancestry. Here you can see the original document . His Service number is 6842, buried at Gheluvelt, which is the Menin Gate cemetery at Ypres, widow Nellie who is written on the document as later Mrs Hirst. She remarried a John Alfred Hirst in 1915. In this document it says 2nd Battalion. Died 15.12.14

2 De Ruvignys Roll of Honour Ancestry. Death place Ypres. Service number 6842. However, first battalion. Died 31.10.14

3 UK Soldiers died in the Great War . Number 6842. First battalion. Died 15.12.14. It is only a transcript.

I conclude from that

1 He wasnt in the army prior to 1911
2 He was probably in First Battalion not Second .
3 He died 31.10 not 15.12

From Wikipaedia:The 1st Battalion landed at Le Havre as part of 9th Brigade in the 3rd Division in August 1914 for service on the Western Front.[31] It saw action at the Battle of Mons in August 1914, the First Battle of Ypres in October 1914, Battle of the Somme in Summer 1916, the Battle of Arras in April 1917 and the advance to the Hindenburg Line in September 1918[32] and was commanded by Lieutenant Colonel Deneys Reitz in the closing stages of the war.[33]

The 2nd Battalion landed at Zeebrugge as part of the 21st Brigade in the 7th Division in October 1914 for service on the Western Front.[31] It saw action at the First Battle of Ypres in October 1914, the Battle of Neuve Chapelle in March 1915, the Battle of Loos in October 1915, the Battle of the Somme in Summer 1916, the Battle of Arras in April 1917 and the Battle of Lys in April 1918.[32]

Offline MaxD

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Re: Yorkshire man in Royal Scots Fusiliers WW1
« Reply #6 on: Friday 08 November 19 14:51 GMT (UK) »
He isn't buried at the Menin Gate.  He is commemorated on the Menin Gate Memorial.

His Commonwealth War Graves Commission entry giving his battalion as 2nd and the date of death as 31 Oct 1914 is here:

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/906990/milner,-tom/


The entry in the Effects Register has 2nd Battalion and presumed date 15 Dec 1914.

His 1914 Star medal roll entry has 15 Dec 1914 http://www.rootschat.com/links/01oln/  The roll is for 2nd Battalion and the date of entry to France is the date that battalion arrived.

The Red Cross record (from information provided by the German authorities) records his burial at Ghulevelt (5 miles south east of Ypres).  The date of the listing is 6 Dec 1914 so 31 December cannot be correct.   http://www.rootschat.com/links/01olo/  He is identified there only by his dogtags suggesting he was not taken prisoner.

Soldiers who died and de Ruvigny's took their information from military sources so should not be relied upon directly.

The war diary of 2nd Battalion confirms that they were in the Ghuluvelt area in October 1914.  Indeed they were almost wiped out on 31 October 1914 losing 5 officers and about 500 men.

1st Battalion were fighting about 30 miles south of Ghuluvelt at that time.

Adding that evidence together.

He was in 2nd Battalion.  He fell at Ghuluvelt almost certainly on 31 October 1914, certainly not on 31 Dec 1914.  He was buried by the Germans who identified him by his dog tags in a now unknown grave in the Ghuluvelt area and as such is commemorated on the Menin Gate Memorial to the missing.

He may have joined in 1901 as his number suggests, served a term and rejoined after his marriage.

MaxD
I am Zoe Northeast, granddaughter of Maximilian Double.
 
It is with great difficulty I share with you that in the early hours of 07 August 2021, Maximilian passed away unexpectedly but peacefully.

With deep sadness,
Zoe



Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

Offline smithkei

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Re: Yorkshire man in Royal Scots Fusiliers WW1
« Reply #7 on: Friday 08 November 19 14:55 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Max. I appreciate your efforts here. Slip of the tongue, buried but yes you are right. I have a picture of his name on the memorial.

Offline MaxD

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Re: Yorkshire man in Royal Scots Fusiliers WW1
« Reply #8 on: Friday 08 November 19 17:28 GMT (UK) »
It looks as if the regiment was on top of the recruiters lists in 1910.  A small sample of men with numbers near to 6842 who joined in July 1901 shows two from Bradford, one from York, one from Halifax.

The position 2 RSF were occupying on 30/31 October 1914 was along the Guleveld - Zandvoorde road
Map/image at:
 https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=14&lat=50.8339&lon=2.9938&layers=101464918&right=BingHyb

The war diary can be downloaded form the National Archives at:https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352427 (it does include Oct 1914).

Ancestry is free until Sunday if you don't have a sub, the diary is here:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43112_1659_0-00000?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return#?imageId=43112_1659_0-00111

MaxD

I am Zoe Northeast, granddaughter of Maximilian Double.
 
It is with great difficulty I share with you that in the early hours of 07 August 2021, Maximilian passed away unexpectedly but peacefully.

With deep sadness,
Zoe



Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia