Why did parents stop christening their children post-1837?

[Maiden Stone]

Here is my understanding (which I think covers points made by others)- Pre Civil registration in order to legitimise the birth of your child couples would have their child baptised within the Anglican (CoE) faith although they might be of another religion.     

Baptisms or births of my Catholic ancestors were recorded in C. of E. registers when:
1. There were penal laws against Catholics and it was necessary to know how many existed, who they were and where they lived. Restrictions were gradually relaxed from late 18th century.  The last Return of Papists for England was in 1780s; it was less detailed than 1767 Return.
2. There was a tax on births. This happened twice during 18th century. The Anglican curate of each parish was responsible for recording birth of every child in his parish, regardless of religious denomination, and for collecting the tax.
The only exception to the above was a long-serving curate who had meticulously recorded births of Catholics in his parish for 4 decades and continued for a few years at start of 19thC. (One of the later births was illegitimate and father was named in baptism register.)
None of my Catholic ancestors were in Anglican baptism registers in any parish after 1810.

[Regorian]

I see you have ignored my comment about non conformist chapels. The records of baptisms are with the History hubs!!! formerly CRO's. The 19th Century was an increasingly religious century and it lasted into the 20th Century, together with voting Labour when universal suffrage became......universal.

[majm]

I'm surprised to hear that. Non Conformist Chapels were proliferating by the 1840's all over the Country. Most can be seen today, even if some have been converted to residences. State registration of BMD's was a legal requirement and the population a few years after 1837 were reminded so. As people had to pay for a certificate on registration, I would have thought they held on to them.

C of E baptisms may have diminished to be replaced by non conformist ones, I don't know. If my wider family was typical, they kept their certificates religiously . 

And

Most certainly did, I have my own and my younger brothers.

And

I see you have ignored my comment about non conformist chapels. The records of baptisms are with the History hubs!!! formerly CRO's. The 19th Century was an increasingly religious century and it lasted into the 20th Century, together with voting Labour when universal suffrage became......universal.

Yes,  I know of many family history buffs who do search out the originals of 20th century documentation just like you have  for you and your siblings, but do you have originals handed to your ancestors back in the  decades before civil registration commenced ? 

In the British Colonies,  civil registration commenced in different years ... so E&W is 1837,  so NSW  was 1856... other colonies had different starts.   In NSW, from commencement of British settlement 1788 there was no formal 'Established' church, so in 1810 the then NSW governor issued a general order requiring clergy, of every denomination to transmit details of all the baptisms, burials and marriage ceremonies they conducted eah quarter through to the NSW chaplains ... so the CofE registers for St Philips, in Sydney has many Roman Catholic, Wesleyan, Presbyterian, Baptist and other denominations throughout those early decades before 1856.   

Sorry for going off topic to original opening post, but hopefully I have responded to Regorian's concerns.

JM  5 a.m. NSW time.

[Regorian]

Yes, I have baptism entries, earliest direct male line 20th December 1702 OS. Only reason not earlier because PR's started 1696.

From 1840's Bible Christian Chapel, Soudley, Forest of Dean and into 20th Century. They were not unusual. Always associated with C of E too.   

[majm]

 

Yes,  entries in the church registers are excellent but I was striving to ask if you had the actual document that the clergy may have handed to the family at the time of that clergyman performing the religious ceremony.     it is my understanding that it was not until mid to late 19th century before most denominations began issuing such documentation as a matter of course,  but that clergy, when approached in decades prior would consult their registers and write a letter under the aurhority of their seal. 

I had read your reply  '... if my wider family was typical, they kept their certificates religiously' to mean you had a collection of original certificates issued across generations upon generations back into the 1780s even and which had been passed diwn through those generations.. 

I have a collection of marriage certs,  on one of my lines,  through each generation since settling in NSW in the 1790s.  These are carefully conserved.  They are the document the clergy handed to the bride with everyone's signature.  It is my understanding that clergy did not issue baptism certs in NSW until around the 1840s was lack of demand,  and as to  burial ....

JM

[Guy Etchells]

Re CofE baptisms post 1837 E&W civil registrations .... the ceremony of baptism has NO clergy fees (and did not have fees in 1800s either) and the record of the ceremony is entered in the church register. Post 1837,  If someone in England or Wales, years later, needed 'proof' they were baptised then they could apply to that church for a document confirming their baptism,  but their parents were not automatically handed any document at the time of the ceremony.   The concept of issuing a document confirming a church ceremony is restricted to marriage,  both parties to sign/make their mark,  witnesses sign/mark.    But other church ceremonies eg : churchings/christenings/baptisms/burials .... historically,  no formal blank pre printed documents issued to clergy for their use until at least several decades after civil registration became a widespread practice throughout the British Empire.  One civil purpose for a baptism certificate being issued would be documents sought by 1850s and 1860s Emigration Agents canvassing throughout GB setting up families and singles for immigration to the British Colonies .. so a ready document confirming the persons name, birth place, age, parents, etc would have been useful even if the emigrants were not yet literate...

JM

Depends what you mean by "historically,  no formal blank pre printed documents issued to clergy for their use until at least several decades after civil registration became a widespread practice throughout the British Empire."

The clergy certainly had access to pre-printed forms they could use to certify births and baptisms before the advent of civil registration for an example of one dated 1818 see- http://anguline.co.uk/cert/birth.html
It is often forgotten one of the reasons for birth, baptism, marriage, death & burial registration and indeed civil registration was for family history purposes to prove ones lineage.

Various examples of pre-printed Marriage certificates may be seen at
http://anguline.co.uk/cert/marriage.html

Cheers
Guy

[majm]

Re CofE baptisms post 1837 E&W civil registrations .... the ceremony of baptism has NO clergy fees (and did not have fees in 1800s either) and the record of the ceremony is entered in the church register. Post 1837,  If someone in England or Wales, years later, needed 'proof' they were baptised then they could apply to that church for a document confirming their baptism,  but their parents were not automatically handed any document at the time of the ceremony.   The concept of issuing a document confirming a church ceremony is restricted to marriage,  both parties to sign/make their mark,  witnesses sign/mark.    But other church ceremonies eg : churchings/christenings/baptisms/burials .... historically,  no formal blank pre printed documents issued to clergy for their use until at least several decades after civil registration became a widespread practice throughout the British Empire.  One civil purpose for a baptism certificate being issued would be documents sought by 1850s and 1860s Emigration Agents canvassing throughout GB setting up families and singles for immigration to the British Colonies .. so a ready document confirming the persons name, birth place, age, parents, etc would have been useful even if the emigrants were not yet literate...

JM

Depends what you mean by "historically,  no formal blank pre printed documents issued to clergy for their use until at least several decades after civil registration became a widespread practice throughout the British Empire."

The clergy certainly had access to pre-printed forms they could use to certify births and baptisms before the advent of civil registration for an example of one dated 1818 see- http://anguline.co.uk/cert/birth.html
It is often forgotten one of the reasons for birth, baptism, marriage, death & burial registration and indeed civil registration was for family history purposes to prove ones lineage.

Various examples of pre-printed Marriage certificates may be seen at
http://anguline.co.uk/cert/marriage.html

Cheers
Guy

Yes,  and the need to 'prove' one's lineage for inheritance purposes in NSW in the pre civil registration era i.e. 1788 - 1856 meant that the person needing the document relied on by the Probate court was the Supreme Court's  Registrar  - a civil appointment.  So the Registrar issued certified documents after inspecting church registers or if the event was not one that had been held in the Antipodes, the Registrar received documentation which he then inspected with the view to prove them or otherwise.  The records of the Registrar of the NSW Supreme Court were handed over to the NSW BDM when it was established in the mid 1850s and is the foundation set of Early Church Records for they include bdm records for various South Seas locations including :  Fiji, New Zealand, Queensland, Victoria, Tasmania,  New South Wales and other outposts of the Empire post American Independence and the 1850s Emigration schemes.

Very very unusual to find actual baptism certificates, or burial certificates, issued to families at the time of the particular event but not unusual to find marriage certificates for that 1788-1856 period in NSW admin history.

Of course there are  plenty of parish registers extant  and these record the bdm events in those British territories because the clergy were required to transmit that info back to the Sydney NSW based Chaplains....


JM  ADD ... I have edited to fix up
A couple of  spelling mistakes - one finger typing on e reader = spelling mistakes ... sorry 

[Irene Lilian Hunt]

I'm wondering if it was economically driven.  It was compulsory to register and cost money so perhaps people didn't have the means to also pay the church to baptise their kids.

[majm]

I am sure there was not and still is not any fee applicable for a baptism in the C of E.

I'm wondering if it was economically driven.  It was compulsory to register and cost money so perhaps people didn't have the means to also pay the church to baptise their kids.

JM