DNA test - can anyone unravel this conundrum please?

[Prue Heron]

Alice Mitchell married to Cyril Burrows         Both siblings from same families.
Will Mitchell married to Sarah Burrows

A current descendent of AM is trying to determine if AM is her Grandmother and whether it was a Burrows who was her Grandfather (probably not Cyril).

A descendent of Will and Sarah has taken a DNA test.  The match shows 172 cm.
Can't see any recognisable names in shared matches.  (The locations suggest to me they may be Mitchell).  We really need to rule out or in Burrows to get past our brick wall.

Is there any way we can untangle this problem or do we need to hunt down another relative to get a DNA test.   Any help very much appreciated.  (I have minimal DNA knowledge).

[sugarfizzle]

Alice Mitchell married to Cyril Burrows         Both siblings from same families.
Will Mitchell married to Sarah Burrows

A current descendent of AM is trying to determine if AM is her Grandmother and whether it was a Burrows who was her Grandfather (probably not Cyril).

A descendent of Will and Sarah has taken a DNA test.  The match shows 172 cm.
Can't see any recognisable names in shared matches.  (The locations suggest to me they may be Mitchell).  We really need to rule out or in Burrows to get past our brick wall.

Is there any way we can untangle this problem or do we need to hunt down another relative to get a DNA test.   Any help very much appreciated.  (I have minimal DNA knowledge).

A descendant of AM is either daughter, grandaughter etc of AM by definition. If AM could be her grandmother, why could Cyril not be her grandfather?
The descendant of WM and SB who matches 172 cMs  - who do they match with, you or the other descendant? Have you had DNA testing?

Sorry to ask so many questions, but just want to clarify.

Regards Margaret

[Prue Heron]

Alice Mitchell married to Cyril Burrows         Both siblings from same families.
Will Mitchell married to Sarah Burrows

A current descendent of AM (LB) is trying to determine if AM is her Grandmother and whether it was a Burrows who was her Grandfather (probably not Cyril).

A descendent of Will and Sarah has taken a DNA test.  The match with LB shows 172 cm.
Can't see any recognisable names in their shared matches.  (The locations suggest to me they may be Mitchell).  We really need to rule out or in Burrows to get past our brick wall.

Is there any way we can untangle this problem or do we need to hunt down another relative to get a DNA test.   Any help very much appreciated.  (I have minimal DNA knowledge).

A descendant of AM is either daughter, grandaughter etc of AM by definition. If AM could be her grandmother, why could Cyril not be her grandfather?
The descendant of WM and SB who matches 172 cMs  - who do they match with, you or the other descendant? Have you had DNA testing?

Sorry to ask so many questions, but just want to clarify.

Regards Margaret

Margaret - you can never ask to many questions.. trust me!  Thanks for responding. 
1.  Alices Granddaughter, LB, has taken a dna test but she didn't know who her Grandmother was (although had her name and vague details).  Her Grandfather is also unknown but she has the name 'Charles Burrows' on her Mum's Birth Certificate.
2.  The DNA match is with the descendent, LB.  LB is 2nd cousin level match with me but I do not match with this 172 cm.
2.  Thanks to some great help from a DNA Detective and Rootschat, we have found Alice Mitchell and built a family tree.
3.  She was married to a Cyril Burrows.  But they separated after having 2 children (1 died young, the other died with no children). LB's Mum was born after the WW1, later than the other two and when she had separated from Cyril.  So we doubt he is the missing Granddad 'aka Charles'
4.  Cyril had several brothers, as well as William above, including one called Charles - could he  have been the father?
5.  I am looking for my bio father (late in life) and have a newly found 2nd cousin - LB (Alice's descendent referred to above).  We think if we can crack LB's tribe, we can find a link to my bio father.
There is a long, history revealing thread elsewhere on rootschat from earlier this year but we hit a new brick wall!  Would like to resolve before I fall off my perch!  Hope this is clear enough.

[sugarfizzle]

Prue, From the information you have given, I can see no evidence that the three of you are descended from the same common great grandparents, parents of the Mitchell ladies and Burrow men. But you presumably have further info to prove the connection?
 
You and LB share sufficient DNA with each other to appear as 2nd cousins, average 233 cMs, range 46 - 515 cMs according to DNA painter.
Neither of you know who your great grandparents were, you have no idea at all, LB thinks she might know.

LB and 'C' share 172 cms, clearly enough to be 2nd cousins, though there are other possibilities. You share no DNA with C.

It is highly unlikely that 2nd cousins share no DNA at all, especially given the 'brother marry sister' scenario you have given.

I may be wrong, but don't forget you have 8 great grandparents, you could match LB on any of those lines.

If you wish to pursue this theory, you will definitely be helping LB, but not necessarily yourself. You cannot provide any other testers at this stage, you may be able to later if a closer match to you turns up. LB might have some known paper trail relatives who could test.
You could look online to see who else is descended from these two couples, ask them to test.
Look at shared matches rather than unshared matches. Look at Common surnames and places in your matches. Divide your results into definite maternals matches and possible paternal matches.

One day, you may get that magic match who turns out to be more closely related than 2nd cousin. A match of mine discovered who his probable grandfather was on the day he got his results back. Still awaiting confirmation, a cousin of mine has tested, results due the end of this month.

Regards Margaret

[mckha489]

Connected thread

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=814830.msg6783195#msg6783195

[Prue Heron]

Prue, From the information you have given, I can see no evidence that the three of you are descended from the same common great grandparents, parents of the Mitchell ladies and Burrow men. But you presumably have further info to prove the connection?
 
You and LB share sufficient DNA with each other to appear as 2nd cousins, average 233 cMs, range 46 - 515 cMs according to DNA painter.
Neither of you know who your great grandparents were, you have no idea at all, LB thinks she might know.


Margaret, very grateful for your taking the time to think this through. 
1. LB and I are are 411cms match - so match your cousin number.  Definitely paternal as she doesn't match my maternal side. 
2. It seems, from the C DNA test that we have the right 'Alice Mitchell' at long last - supported by other information LB already had. 
3. I think I understand you right that this latest DNA test - from C - proably confirms 'Alice Mitchell' as LB's Grandmother.  However, with no match to me, combined with a lower number test, probably no Burrows connection for LB or me.
4.So the missing link is the man who fathered LB's mother in 1923 and the man who fathered me in 1947 only we don't have 'Burrows' as a possible anymore.. despite it being on LB's Mum's Birth Certificate and over the shop AM was living in at the time of conception of baby IB, LB's Mum.

So now, as you say, we have to wait and hope for a new closer match.  If anything else occurs to you meanwhile - unlikely, I know, with all the other things  you've got on... would love to hear.  Meanwhile, I will keep doing yoga to make sure I'm still here when the answer is found!!
Prue


LB and 'C' share 172 cms, clearly enough to be 2nd cousins, though there are other possibilities. You share no DNA with C.

It is highly unlikely that 2nd cousins share no DNA at all, especially given the 'brother marry sister' scenario you have given.

I may be wrong, but don't forget you have 8 great grandparents, you could match LB on any of those lines.

If you wish to pursue this theory, you will definitely be helping LB, but not necessarily yourself. You cannot provide any other testers at this stage, you may be able to later if a closer match to you turns up. LB might have some known paper trail relatives who could test.
You could look online to see who else is descended from these two couples, ask them to test.
Look at shared matches rather than unshared matches. Look at Common surnames and places in your matches. Divide your results into definite maternals matches and possible paternal matches.

One day, you may get that magic match who turns out to be more closely related than 2nd cousin. A match of mine discovered who his probable grandfather was on the day he got his results back. Still awaiting confirmation, a cousin of mine has tested, results due the end of this month.

Regards Margaret

[sugarfizzle]

Prue, You may think you have outruled Burrows, but as C is descended from parents of Will Mitchell, you should share DNA with him if you are 2nd cousins. To me, that says you have to outrule Mitchell as well.  However, you presumably have other evidence to back this up.

Wait for closer matches - they will probably come along sooner or later.
See if LB, C and you are willing to upload to Gedmatch, familytreeDNA and myheritageDNA.
Lower the parameters at Gedmatch and myheritage to see if you can see any match between C and yourself at all.
Try out What are the odds? - unlikely to provide an answer, but may give some clues.

Good luck in your quest.

Regards Margaret

Amended - See Craclyn's reply. Upload to other sites but don't alter any parameters. Margaret

[Craclyn]

If you lower the parameters at gedmatch then you have no guarantee that any matching segments which show are Identical By Descent rather than just Identical By State. This approach can easily lead to erroneous conclusions.

[sugarfizzle]

I know that, Craclyn, but if the three of them match in the same place on the same segment by slightly less than the accepted lower limit, it might give an indication. I don't think they will match, but sometimes I find that matches at other places give higher values anyway, without altering parameters.

It's not an approach that I would usually take, for exactly the reasons you have given.

Regards Margaret