Author Topic: Stumped on this family. Help  (Read 1261 times)

Offline liznjohn2011

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 86
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Stumped on this family. Help
« Reply #9 on: Monday 02 September 19 00:16 BST (UK) »
Yes that's the birth entry I had came across aswel, I know who that Elizabeth  Is, but iv never seen the other names connected with the family before now.

Think I will need to go through the earlier census tomorrow.

Thank you everyone for having a look and adding suggestions
Trainer, Hope, Newland, Hide

Offline suzard

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 23,197
    • View Profile
Re: Stumped on this family. Help
« Reply #10 on: Monday 02 September 19 00:37 BST (UK) »
1841
Ness Berwick Northumberland
Rose Phillips 45 ( S crossed through)
Ann 20 S
Robert 15 S
Sarah 14 S
William 11 N
Elizabeth 9 N
David 5 N
William 3 N
HO107 8 44 12 16

Suz
Thornhill, Cresswell, Sisson, Harriman, Cripps, Eyre, Walter, Marson, Battison, Holmes, Bailey, Hardman, Fairhurst Noon-mainly in Derbys/Notts-but also Northampton, Oxford, Leics, Lancs-England
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline suzard

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 23,197
    • View Profile
Re: Stumped on this family. Help
« Reply #11 on: Monday 02 September 19 00:41 BST (UK) »
This looks a possible for the younger Elisabeth's birth

TRAINER, ELIZABETH       HOPE 
GRO Reference: 1860  D Quarter in BERWICK UPON TWEED UNION  Volume 10B  Page 295

this one could be the daughter of James Nelson Trainer and Elener Elizabeth on 1871 census is 10 1861 she is 5 mths

Suz
Thornhill, Cresswell, Sisson, Harriman, Cripps, Eyre, Walter, Marson, Battison, Holmes, Bailey, Hardman, Fairhurst Noon-mainly in Derbys/Notts-but also Northampton, Oxford, Leics, Lancs-England
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Annette7

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,014
    • View Profile
Re: Stumped on this family. Help
« Reply #12 on: Monday 02 September 19 12:42 BST (UK) »
In 1861 'Roar' (believed Rose or variants) is 80 and dies as Rosina Phillips aged 85 in Mar.qtr.1864 Berwick.   However, either her age has been 'inflated' or she is not the mother of Elizabeth Phillips 27 as she would have been 50+.

I believe I've found her in 1851 in Kelso, Roxburghshire:

Alexander Watson  26    Chimney Sweeper    born Kelso
Anne Watson          31                                 born England
Phillis Watson    2                                        born Kelso
Sarah               0                                            ditto
plus the following 'visitors'
Rosana Philips   Wid.    66                             born England
E. Ormond       Mar.     20    Hawker                   ditto
William Philips   12                                       born Kelso
Anne Barkley  7                                           born Berwick on Tweed
Sarah Linden 16    House servant                      ditto
Cathrane Ormond 1                                     born Kelso

With so many coincidences here - and assuming 1841 census details are correct - was Anne Watson previously Phillips, was E Ormond the Elizabeth Phillips from 1861, was Anne Barkley from the same family as Agnes Barclay in 1861, and was Cathrane Ormond 1 the same person as Catherine Crammond in 1861???

Needless to say, I can't find any relevant birth/baptism/marriage details.   However, with Hawker being stated again were the family gypsy's?   All I could establish was that Phillis and Sarah Watson were in Kelso Union Poorhouse in 1861 together with a Helen Watson aged 6 (perhaps a younger sister).   Had parents Alexander and Anne died?

The only other thing I could find was that a Nancy Phillips bp.28/2/1819 Berwick upon Tweed, daughter of Thomas and Rosana - could this have been 'Anne'?

Annette     
Scopes (One-Name Study - Worldwide)
Suffolk - Grist, Knights, Bullenthorpe, Watcham
Scotland - Spence, Horne, Cowan, Moffat
London -  Monk

Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.   Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.   Just walk beside me and be my friend.

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline chris_49

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,349
  • Unknown Father - swiving then vanishing since 1750
    • View Profile
Re: Stumped on this family. Help
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 03 September 19 13:27 BST (UK) »
I thought I'd have a go at this. Assuming that Elizabeth is the one born Berwick district 1860 MMN Hope, she is surely a daughter of James N Trainer b Berwick and "Elenor" b Tweedmouth. They are consistently found on the 1861, '71 and '81 at Berwick Town Hall where he is a "Keeper of Lock-up" with (in '71) prisoners to prove it. Moreover, there is an Elizabeth Trainer, daughter on all 3 censuses and in '61 she is 5 months old, which fits her birth reg.

I found this family in all censuses bar '51 - even in '41 with just eldest Mary, and '91 where Elenor is a widow, still with daughters unwed Mary, and Sarah Gibson and family. I can't find a Trainer-Hope marriage reg - before 1837, or in Scotland? - but all the children have MMN Hope including some in the gaps who presumably died.

The 1861 record of an Elizabeth Trainer in the Phillips household seems to be a complete red herring - no other record found for her, birth or census - but, as Annette found, that seems to be usual for that family. 

Unless.......... this is a double-counting which sometimes happens. I have a couple of cases in my tree (the relative counted where they happened to be, but also where they usually lived). If this is likely, LiznJohn, is there a side of this family where you haven't traced back? Starting with the thought that Rose Phillips might be her great-grandmother, which would allow her to have a daughter who married a Trainer or a Hope. After all, she seems to have descendants with quite a variety of surnames.
Skelcey (Skelsey Skelcy Skeley Shelsey Kelcy Skelcher) - Warks, Yorks, Lancs <br />Hancox - Warks<br />Green - Warks<br />Draper - Warks<br />Lynes - Warks<br />Hudson - Warks<br />Morris - Denbs Mont Salop <br />Davies - Cheshire, North Wales<br />Fellowes - Cheshire, Denbighshire<br />Owens - Cheshire/North Wales<br />Hicks - Cornwall<br />Lloyd and Jones (Mont)<br />Rhys/Rees (Mont)