Author Topic: Romany/Scottish Travellers in Ireland  (Read 2467 times)

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Romany/Scottish Travellers in Ireland
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 13 August 19 15:39 BST (UK) »
Too bad the OP didn't respond to all the information posted although they had signed in after River Tyne Lass' last post on the 10th August  :-\
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline River Tyne Lass

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Re: Romany/Scottish Travellers in Ireland
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 13 August 19 16:18 BST (UK) »
I agree aghadowey.  :-\



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Offline hallmark

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Re: Romany/Scottish Travellers in Ireland
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 13 August 19 16:47 BST (UK) »


Hi Dathai! I am pretty certain I am tracing the right family... it's taken me a long time to get this far! Being labelled a joiner in the census doesn't preclude William from also being a Traveller. Joiners make smaller more ornamental objects - furniture, fittings, etc and not the larger stuff of a carpenter or other woodworker. My grandfather made wooden stools with seats woven from cloth or reeds that he was taught to make by his dad, Francis James). Most Travellers weren't labelled as such in the census, especially in the North East (if they even appear in the census) and most had some kind of house address by the 1800s).

I'm not sure of the other links you posted - they went to login forms on other sites. Are these to look for the birth certificates etc?   

See  https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=200983.msg6788718#msg6788718
Give a man a record and you feed him for a day.
Teach a man to research, and you feed him for a lifetime.

Offline alasdair_13

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Re: Romany/Scottish Travellers in Ireland
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 10 October 23 12:05 BST (UK) »
I too have hit a brick wall and I wonder if it is due to the ancestor being from a travelling family. I’d welcome any help, insights or advice. My 2nd G grandfather was called William Docherty. He was born c 1874 in Hamilton (according to his appearance in later Scotland census returns) and died in 1947 in Dumfries where he lived certainly from around 1892 or so. He married in Dumfries a lady called Grace Wilson and I’ve found they’re marriage certificate.

The major problem is that I’ve been unable to find a birth certificate for him at all or his entry on census anywhere in the UK before 1901.

From his marriage certificate his fathers name is recorded as Robert Docherty (deceased) and mother Mary Elizabeth Robertson. There is no record of them anywhere I can find.

Where I did make some progress recently was through ancestry DNA where I identified a distant cousin who it appeared was descended from a brother of William Docherty (James). Intriguingly there is no birth record for him either though his later census returns place his birthplace as Lockerbie c 1870. His marriage certificate states parents as for William but Robertson has come Robinson. 

Finally an intensive search on Scotlands people identified a third sibling, a sister, Alice Agnes, born - according to census details - in Kirkcudbrightshire in c 1864. Again there is no birth certificate for her, though her. She marrries a Lawrence Collins in Castle Douglas in 25 September 1882 and her marriage certificate already says Robert Dougherty (sic!) is dead. Her mother is cited again as Robinson. She dies young in 1889.

So we have three verified siblings, and verified parents but no birth certificates I’ve been able to find and no parents records I’ve been able to find. The traveller connection is through old family stories that suggest Robert was a traveller who met Mary and married in cumbria in a traveller ceremony. Certainly, my ancestor, William, was a horse dealer all his life in Dumfries and was the first man to take Clydesdale horses to Canada. At his funeral apparently all the local traveller families came to pay their respects.


Offline aghadowey

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Re: Romany/Scottish Travellers in Ireland
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 10 October 23 15:11 BST (UK) »
Spelling was very fluid until at least WWI when more people were literate, had to fill in forms, etc. Robertson and Robinson are just versions of the same name. Doherty/Docherty ... has numerous variations. With such variations it can be difficult to find records but don't forget to check under mother's surname in case the parents were not married.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline alasdair_13

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Re: Romany/Scottish Travellers in Ireland
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 10 October 23 15:56 BST (UK) »
Thanks. And sorry I should have said that I’ve exhaustively tried various spelling variations and mothers surname too all to no avail.
Spelling was very fluid until at least WWI when more people were literate, had to fill in forms, etc. Robertson and Robinson are just versions of the same name. Doherty/Docherty ... has numerous variations. With such variations it can be difficult to find records but don't forget to check under mother's surname in case the parents were not married.

Offline MonicaL

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Re: Romany/Scottish Travellers in Ireland
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 10 October 23 20:51 BST (UK) »
Hi Alasdair

There is an entry on the 1871 census in Troqueer, Kirkcudbright that looks interesting to follow up.

Ancestry have the surname as Dothage and Find my Past have it as Dotheray.

From Ancestry you have this group below. They all show as born in Cumberland and each shown as 'traveler':

Mary Elizabeth Dothage 39 Lodger widow, traveller, b. Cumberland
George Mean Dothage 13 (FindMyPast have the name as Georgeanian - female)
Robert Dotheray 10
Alice Dotheray 7
James Dotheray 3

Address 4 Church St, Maxwelltown, Troqueer (FindMyPast have it as 2, Stables).

Failing to see a William though on this list...

Monica
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Offline MonicaL

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Re: Romany/Scottish Travellers in Ireland
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 10 October 23 21:24 BST (UK) »
Have you managed to find any of the confirmed children on the 1881 census?

I saw this possibility for Alice:

Elice Docherty, 17, hawker b. England
Lodging at Eastgate Lod. House, Peebles.

Do you know what her occupation showed as on her 1882 marriage reg?

Monica
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Offline MonicaL

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Re: Romany/Scottish Travellers in Ireland
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 10 October 23 21:49 BST (UK) »
I think we are on the right track for the family.

The eldest daughter Georgina from the 1871 census entry died in Hamilton in 1934 at the age of 77.

GEORGINA DOUGHERTY or SHERRY
Age 77
1934
Ref 647 / 479
Hamilton

She is showing as the widow of a Mark Sherry, coal hewer. Can't easily see that marriage so far in Scotland/England.

See parent details from the reg below. Note that Mary Elizabeth is showing there with the maiden name of Hudspith.

Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk