Place name in France or Belgium

[Viktoria]

Thank you all so much! I forgot that I had the full War Diary from the National Archives, having previously only printed out a small part of it. Ghyvelde is indeed mentioned on exactly those dates. I presume it may have been pronounced Gee - veld with a hard G so could easily have been misheard.

I will now go back through the diaries and match them up with what he wrote on his list.

I notice in the Battalion diaries the location is given as 'in the line' and talks about Nose Support, Nose Lane and Nasal Trench which I guess were the names given to the trenches. So when he said he went 'up the line', he must have been in the trenches.

In Flemish a g is sounded as h,you breathe so Gent is Hent but just a little guttural,and Gyvelde is Highvelde.
It is hard to write it down.if you think of Bach,( not “Bark “ )the last sound there is similar to the first of Gent.That is why in English there is an h after the initial G.The Scottish Loch is also similar.
Viktoria.

[/

[ShaunJ]

In Flemish a g is sounded as h,you breathe so Gent is Hent but just a little guttural,and Gyvelde is Highvelde.
It is hard to write it down.if you think of Bach,( not “Bark “ )the last sound there is similar to the first of Gent.That is why in English there is an h after the initial G.The Scottish Loch is also similar.
Viktoria.

When I lived in Overijse 25 years ago, working in Brussels alongside Flemish colleagues (some of whom lived in Gent), I was struck by how the local Flemish pronunciation of G - for instance in Gent - differed from the Dutch. It was pure and hard, like the the G in golf, while the Dutch pronunciation was much more in the throat, as Viktoria describes very well.

[Viktoria]

I lived first in Gent then on the outskirts ,Mariakerke.
Very rural.
I am surprised people spoke Flemish in Brussels,as when we visited1965-1976 shop assistants and waitresses etc would not speak it and pretended not to understand it.
The awful language divide between French  speakers and Flemish speakers,yet Brussels is in Flemish Brabant!.
Flemish is taught in schools in Wallonia and French in schools in Flanders.
There was a snobbism  about French and Flemish people would go to the Banketbakkerij for a gateau!
When the rioting was happening for Flemish to be the language for lectures etc at Universities “ Leuven Vlaamse” —I was in a cake shop with a woman newly living near me who was English, had not done French at school and no
Flemish of course.We (I)asked the Baker was the cream in a particular cake boter room of verse slagroom.?( butter cream or fresh whipped cream)
The answer came “ Ach. nee Madame ‘‘tis geen creme au beurre ‘tis creme fraiche”.
I had used the Flemish but he used some French,a bit posher you see.
I was flabbergasted that when people were rioting for their language he chose not to use it completely.
The word for mushroom is kampernoeli but never used ,always champignon.

People who had been there for a long time like women who married Belgian soldiers convalescing in England WW1,would not use the Flemish street names,they were in two languages and they chose only to recognise the French,pretended not to know where  Veldstraat was  but knew Rue des Champs, and it was on the same sign!
I would not bend, we were in Flanders and so I spoke Flemish and the fact that you tried went a long way. People met you more than half way.
My husband refused to speak French on the Bourse in Brussels,so the others in the Exchange had to do likewise if they wanted to do business with him ,
and they did so they could!
Cheerio.Viktoria.


 

[portybelle]

Thanks - that's really interesting to hear about the different pronunciations.

[KGarrad]

That's very strange, Viktoria?

These days Walloon (French speaking part of Belgium) tends to be working-class, poorer, and less well educated. And they consciously don't speak Flemish (Vlaams).
Brabant (Flemish/Vlaams speaking) tend to be bi-lingual, better educated, and in white-collar jobs.

For this reason, nearly all national meetings in Belgium have to be conducted in French.
And, in recent years, that has stirred up the Flemish people (e.g. the rise of Vlaams Belang and other right-wing political groups).

I have friends from both sides

[Viktoria]

Sorry KGarrad, I have not understood what is strange,I spoke only of
Brussels not Wallonia.
It puzzled me that in a Flemish province Flemish was not acceptable in one city.
You will know I am sure why French was decided as the  first language -the first King Leopold 1 married a French Princess and the prohibition of Flemish
began.




Children having to carry small change as they were fined in school if they slipped into their first language.
No printing in Flemish no street signs etc.
It was proscribed as Scots and Irish Gaelic was.
The Flemish Revival sought to revive the language.
Patricia Carson ,living in Belgium wrote a book in 1975” The Fair Face of Flanders”, just a quote——
“ To many Flemings Brussels is becoming an alien city,as the capital of a centralised state,headquarters of  Parliament  it is officially bi- lingual, yet an unfortunate and uncomfortable atmosphere pervades there which makes Flemings feel as second class citizens in a city which was until the 19th century Dutch speaking.
To work there Flemings must speak French, educate their children in a French speaking schools and are therefore lost to Flanders.
 There was a language frontier fixed in 1962,but the imbalance of French/Flemish speaking means that Flemings moving to Brussels for work have fewer facilities than their French speaking compatriots”.
She did write the book in the early 1970’s but that is the time we were there .. Such bitterness is remembered ,or was when we were there by old people who were the children of those still fined for speaking their own language.
I do not like Brussels, much prefer the Flemish region and its carillons and such long views and still primitive farming methods,peasants yet some still were ,ploughing and harrowing with the huge Brabander horses,they might have stepped out of a Brueghel painting.
Oh I did not want to leave.
Victoria.