Author Topic: Two burials in one grave?  (Read 3436 times)

Offline Traysha

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Re: Two burials in one grave?
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 22 May 19 11:12 BST (UK) »
Thanks for that but it just shows "sent" messages and as it wasn't actually sent it should have been saved to outbox but not showing that >:(
Must retype info again to send when Sandra is ready to receive....over and out
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Offline Chris Doran

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Re: Two burials in one grave?
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 22 May 19 11:28 BST (UK) »
If this is the one I think it is, there are in fact 13 unrelated people buried there over 1925-26. Only the soldier has a headstone, which looks as if it is quite recent. I'll PM Sandra with the list.

Many cemeteries, including Epsom, have "private" and "public" graves. With private graves, exclusive burial rights are purchased, usually for a family, and for a set period of time like 75 years or even in perpetuity, though the latter is uncommon nowadays. The owners usually have a right to erect a monument such as headstone and/or kerbs.

With public (aka "common") graves, there are no such rights and unrelated people are buried together. One of my relatives is with 18 strangers, and  I've known 30 or more. Headstones may or may not be permitted and where they are and relatives can afford them, they tend to be miniature ones less than knee height. You'll often see rows of them one behind the other like dominos. I've also seen full size headstones with multiple unrelated names. Public graves are obviously cheaper and often referred to as "pauper's graves", though I think this term should really be applied to those buried "on the parish".

Burial of a child in the private grave of friends or strangers who died around the same time was a common practice until quite recently and may still happen. The kind explanation was "so the child wouldn't be lonely", but harsher reality was that unless you could afford it, no one wanted to bother opening a grave for a baby.

If you look up a relative somewhere like Deceasedonline and it says "buried with X others" and X is half a dozen or more, then it was either a private grave of a large, rich family or a public one and you may have difficulty finding it. With the present shortage of burial space in towns, public grave areas of cemeteries are now the first to be reused for ashes plots or new burials by piling several feet of earth on top, and your relative's grave will be unrecognisable.
Researching Penge, Anerley, (including the Crystal Palace) and neighbouring parts of Beckenham, currently in London (Bromley), formerly Surrey and/or Kent.

Offline *Sandra*

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Re: Two burials in one grave?
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 22 May 19 12:54 BST (UK) »
Thank you for your message Chris. Very interesting.  The CWGC very often deem a headstone (or no headstone) as not an adequate commemoration and produce a new one to mark the graves of personnel who died during the war or as a result of the war. (complete with a rededication service)  I wondered if this might be the case but that doesn't look like a typical CWGC headstone.

Sandra
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Offline Chris Doran

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Re: Two burials in one grave?
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 22 May 19 16:37 BST (UK) »
This is the grave we're talking about. It certainly looks like a headstone provided privately rather than the familiar CWGC vertical stones or the smaller flat "Gallipoli" stones now sometimes used as they are presumably easier and cheaper to install and less obtrusive on family monuments. I haven't been able to find out anything about him and why he was still here so long after WW1,
Researching Penge, Anerley, (including the Crystal Palace) and neighbouring parts of Beckenham, currently in London (Bromley), formerly Surrey and/or Kent.


Offline Traysha

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Re: Two burials in one grave?
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 22 May 19 17:38 BST (UK) »
Yes Chris, that is the headstone I am referring to. The person also buried there is Walter James Gubby who had been a trainer, jockey and turf accountant and probably would have had a fair amount of money as he sold horses in 1887 worth up to 100gns. His widow was buried in a different grave with her daughter and there is a headstone for them at Epsom.

Did you mean there were 13 buried in that particular grave? That's unbelievable!!!

There are 7 burials for the family Gubby babies who have all been given a grave number, but don't know if there will be any headstones.

I found John Richard Wilkinson in the Canadian Archives. His attestation paper says he was born in London 30 June 1878, sister Mary Smart of Gillingham Kent.
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Online BushInn1746

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Re: Two burials in one grave?
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 23 May 19 17:56 BST (UK) »
This is the grave we're talking about. It certainly looks like a headstone provided privately rather than the familiar CWGC vertical stones or the smaller flat "Gallipoli" stones now sometimes used as they are presumably easier and cheaper to install and less obtrusive on family monuments. I haven't been able to find out anything about him and why he was still here so long after WW1,

Hello

The reason why the Headstone is not IWGC / now CWGC is the year date 1925. The War Graves Commission were only responsible for a set number of years after WW 1 and WW 2.

If a person died of War injuries outside of the IWGC / CWGC specified period, they generally don't have a War Commission Grave, ***
or
It might also be the case that he died of something else (not war related), but his kin wanted to acknowledge his War Service. But 1925 is outside the CWGC period.


As a former L.A. Officer, I always understood our Paupers Graves (also known as Public Health Act burials) in UK Local Authority Cemeteries to be a burial:-
where no person has come forward to claim the deceased (yes it does happen) and Council Officers can find no money or bank account and no references to next of kin at his/her residence and upon enquiry with the neighbours, etc., of the deceased;
or the person responsible has no money to bury the deceased.
Also a case where the deceased died whilst officially Bankrupt and had no funds.


There are also shared graves (like my Gt Uncle's), where the deceased shares a used grave with a stranger, as it was cheaper to purchase a burial space in the used grave (rather than an outright Freehold purchase grave).
Shared graves are not necessarily always a 'Pauper's grave'.

Mark


Added
 *** see CWGC
Who Do You Commemorate? on their Frequently Asked Questions page
https://www.cwgc.org/about-us/faqs

Offline Chris Doran

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Re: Two burials in one grave?
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 23 May 19 21:29 BST (UK) »
I don't know who organises or maintains them, but I've seen many CWGC-style headstones for deaths between the wars and after 1947. As far as I know, they are still used to this day unless the family prefers their own. They aren't listed on the CWGC website, but an incomplete list post-WW2 is on the Armed Forces Memorial site. (I think I found a site for the inter-war years, but I've lost the URL.)

A few I've collected are listed here inter-war and here post WW2
Researching Penge, Anerley, (including the Crystal Palace) and neighbouring parts of Beckenham, currently in London (Bromley), formerly Surrey and/or Kent.

Offline *Sandra*

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Re: Two burials in one grave?
« Reply #16 on: Friday 24 May 19 17:01 BST (UK) »


That is correct - Private Wilkinson would not have qualified as a war casualty as he died in 1925.

Not all war graves in the UK are marked by CWGC headstones. Approximately, 37000 war graves in the UK are marked by private memorials chosen by the casualty’s family, some graves are marked by a private memorial as well as a CWGC headstone.

Private memorials are inspected when CWGC staff visit the burial grounds concerned and when, in the opinion of there Inspector, the war casualty is no longer commemorated adequately, steps would then be taken to remedy the situation, possibly by the addition of a Commission headstone.

Sandra
"We search for information, but the burden of proof is always with the thread owner"

Census information is Crown Copyright  http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Offline Traysha

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Re: Two burials in one grave?
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 25 May 19 20:00 BST (UK) »
I have received a reply to my email to Epsom Cemetery and it confirms what has been said on this forum

"Walter James Gubby is indeed buried in grave space K 735 in Epsom Cemetery as is John Richard Wilkinson.
This grave space is a public grave space and holds many remains of people who were buried in 1925 and 1926 but who were unrelated. In older days it was often termed as a common grave.
There is a granite marker placed upon this grave space to the late John Richard Wilkinson as he was a Canadian War Veteran."

I still can't comprehend how 13 could have been buried there. It must cover a decent sized plot or else I dread to think they were buried on top of each other without coffins. Heaven fordid!!!1
 
Pugh  Bishops Castle
Burley Cradley Heath
Foley  Cradley Heath
Smith  Netherton