Joseph Septimus Carr - who is he?

[mckha489]

Who were witnesses at wedding of Thomas Carr/Irvine to Catherine Lambert?

Agnes Evans & Sarah Wilson

[cafetiere]

Oh, wow, just woke up to see all of this. Thank you both so much!

Now to unpick it all. 

Are you suggesting that Thomas Carr was possibly Thomas Carr Irvine and that his father was JS Irvine not Carr? Plus, his mother looks to be Ann Rawsthorne? So he's dropped the Irvine for some reason.

And Catherine Lambert/Lombard might have been her maiden name and she made up borrowed Irvine as a cover for something?

It all sounds a bit shifty - why the late marriage, why is Kate from Ireland in one census and why the "false" names on the banns? If she was married to someone else but living with Thomas, the Lambert butcher father doesn't fit.

Thanks for all of your help on this, it's been fascinating to read.

So, to look for Mary Ellen's ancestors I should look for Irvines and Lamberts really? 

[mckha489]

Oh, wow, just woke up to see all of this. Thank you both so much!

Now to unpick it all. 

Are you suggesting that Thomas Carr was possibly Thomas Carr Irvine and that his father was JS Irvine not Carr? Plus, his mother looks to be Ann Rawsthorne? So he's dropped the Irvine for some reason.

And Catherine Lambert/Lombard might have been her maiden name and she made up borrowed Irvine as a cover for something?

It all sounds a bit shifty - why the late marriage, why is Kate from Ireland in one census and why the "false" names on the banns? If she was married to someone else but living with Thomas, the Lambert butcher father doesn't fit.

Thanks for all of your help on this, it's been fascinating to read.

So, to look for Mary Ellen's ancestors I should look for Irvines and Lamberts really?

Getting married late and fudging the details seems to have been far more common than you might think. You've only got to follow a few threads on Rootschat to see.

I've got a couple in my own tree who lived together for 50 years before marrying! And she, used all sorts of alternative names along the way - but all somehow connected so possible to track.

In general it seems to be that a first marriage broke down and they moved on to another relationship but couldn't marry as first spouse still living. Alternative was to commit bigamy and you could get a hard labour term for that!

I think once you actually look at all the documents, luckily its Lancashire so there are a lot online :-), you will hopefully come to the same conclusions as we have.

Yes to Lambert and Irvine, although I have to say the Lamberts are proving difficult. We could do with a few more census appearance for Catherine. I am hoping the one Ireland mention is a redherring/error on the part of the enumerator/Misheard place name..... Ireland can be difficult.

 

[cafetiere]

The rest of my ancestors are from Ireland so I was relieved to find an English line thinking it'd be more straightforward 

I keep forgetting about the Lancashire records. I'd (foolishly) discounted non-Catholic records as hadn't considered they'd converted. Big lesson learned.

[cafetiere]

Now I've just put Carr into the Lancashire records with no other search criteria, there are loads with it as a middle name. Will need some mapping now to work them all out.

I'm assuming Carr is a middle name and not a term seen on records for somethings else?

[mckha489]

I’ve found them on the 1861

49 Haigh Street, Everton household is
Daniel WILSON, labourer 44 b Liverpool
His wife Margaret  50 b Ireland
Kate JOHNSON married 25 niece dressmaker, b Ireland .....sorry. margaret must be the Aunt?
AND lodging there is Thomas IRVINE 23 a painter.

[mckha489]

Marriage.?
Can’t find image yet


Daniel Wilson
Marriage Date:   24 Aug 1845
Marriage Place:   Saint Nicholas,Liverpool,Lancashire,England
Spouse:   Margaret Lambert

Image

Daniel WILSON,  labourer. Highfield street, father Thomas WILSON, Weaver
Margaret LAMBERT, widow , Highfield Street, Father Lawrence LAMBERT a butcher.

Witnesses John BOND and Mary  something like HENSLEY. All mark except John Bond

[cafetiere]

Sorry, just remembered a key bit of information. On Mary Ellen's baptismal certificate, her dob is 27 November 1870. The baptism is dated 2 May 1896 which is why I'd scrolled past it earlier as presumed the age didn't fit. So, earlier censuses with Mary E as 4 in 1871 may refer to a previous child?

And, whilst looking for Thomas Carrs born in 1871, I found a Thomas Joseph Carr marrying in 1898 and giving his address as Hunter Street, Liverpool. Hunter St was the road Catherine Lambert gave on her marriage banns. But he lists his father as John Carr. 

[mckha489]

Where is the baptism image for Mary Ellen?

And do you have a copy of her marriage?