Help in identifying photo decade please grandfather's Bourke grandmothers

[sherro47]

I would so much appreciate any opinions as to which decade this photograph/sketch may have been created, please. It is a large portrait that hangs on my wall, and my paternal grandmother told me that the subjects were one of my grandfather's Bourke grandmothers with one of her boys who had died young. The parents of my grandfather's mother were unrelated Bourkes-Margaret and Patrick- who married in Kilmore in 1869. This portrait is either Margaret Bourke, who was born in 1848, or her mother-in-law, Judith Mary Meehan Bourke, who was born in c. 1814-15. Both women had sons who died young, so that clue is not particularly helpful. An estimation of the decade in which this portrait was created would very much assist in clarifying whether Margaret or Judith is the subject. Many thanks, Jen

[russell12]

I would say early 1850s;

She looks to be wearing a visite mantle with modified pagoda sleeves (trimmed with passementerie) and modest engageantes. The chemisette collar (sometimes this scarf+collar combination is referred to as a fichu) she is wearing was also very popular from 1840-1860.

So most likely to be Judith Mary Meehan Bourke

[sherro47]

Thank you so much for your brilliant help! I have for years been talking to her as 'Judith', and introducing her to people as Judith, but suddenly a nagging doubt hit me a few weeks ago that I had never actually verified that it was Judith and not Margaret. Many, many thanks!

[jim1]

A bit later than 1852.
What you have is an over-sketched enlargement of a photograph.
Prior to the introduction of photo enlargers any attempt at enlarging a photo resulted in loss of definition. These enlargements were then over-sketched (with varying results) to bring out the features.
This one is particularly well done.
Late 1850's - early 1860's.

[sherro47]

That is fantastic information, Jim-thank you so very much. I have always wondered about the method by which the image was created, as well as the reason, but could never find out anything about this sort of portrait. There is a similar one from the same family, which I am adding to this post, but this one is even more difficult to date...I can't even begin to guess what decade he is from.

[jim1]

If memory serves me correctly photo enlargers became the norm in the 20's. After that there would be no call for these types of photos. What looks like an Oxford tie so 1890's is the start point I would suggest but could easily be up to WW1.

[sherro47]

Thank you again for this valuable information, Jim. I have attached the complete portrait as it hangs on our wall- not that his coat offers any clues, I imagine! Because it came from the house of Margaret Bourke, and she lost her eldest son, John, at the age of 19 in 1890, I always wondered if it was him. She lost six children in six years, aged between 19 and one week. I have photographs of the three children who survived to adulthood, and this young man is definitely not one of them. This identification caper really is a matter of gathering as many facts as possible, making an educated guess, and always starting your conversations about the portrait with "This is most likely..." rather than "This is...".  Many thanks for your assistance. Jen