help needed please regarding a Frances Dorothy Kemp born in Glasgow

[loobylooayr]

I wonder if the name Frances given to the adopted baby is a nod to the adoptive mother. Would this appear on the birth certificate? Probably not. Chances are the baby wasn't a newborn when she was handed over to the Kemps.

Looby

If she was registered her mother's name will be on the cert. but as there's no Frances Dorothy Kemp it's difficult to know if she was registered or handed over unregistered i.e. with Fanny being a Kemp herself by then (assuming she is the mother) then Frances has been registered in another name?
There are only 6 born 1917 Kemp in Lanark.

Annie

Yes, that's what I mean, Annie. I had originally being leaning towards the idea that baby Frances Dorothy was a child born to a family member who Charles Kemp and wife "adopted".
But now with the latest couple in the frame ,  Charles and Fanny (Holdroff) Kemp, being born in Kent and Cornwall, yet married in Glasgow , it seems less likely the baby was related to them. The baby girl could've been registered with a completely different name and the Kemps renamed her.

Looby

[Rosinish]

Then we move to Scotland - Charles Kemp, 37, Boilermans Labourer, widower(?) son of James Kemp, fisherman and Eliza nee Holden, married Fanny Holdroff 32 (? definitely not), single, dau. of Charles Holdroff, Warrant Officer, R.N. deceased and Sarah Holdroff, previously Tong, nee Sedgewood (or similar) married 7/5/1914 Pollokshields, Glasgow.

Charles' mother is Elizabeth & Fanny's mother is Sarah yet the only birth which would relate to mothers names is 1916 Elizabeth Kemp in Anderston but there's a Jamesina Allison Kemp 1916 Gorbals & Charles father was James but...she could have been named anything 

Annie

Add...Seen your post Looby...I have asked Annette if she has found a connection with the Charles who was the adoptive parent & this Charles & Fanny.
It seems too coincidental not to be related but it's an avenue I suppose as we are at a crossroads not knowing which turn off to take   

[Rosinish]

Annette, Looby, I think I may have picked it up wrong from Annette's post...will read it again 

Annie

Edited above...I'm sea sick 

[Annette7]

Have you found a connection with the adoptive family Charles who I think may be Charles R W Kemp?


Annie

To be honest, I didn't quite understand the question since all that is really known is that her adoptive father was named Charles Kemp and that in 1939 Frances Dorothy was living in Plymouth.   

Lots of posting re. Charles Kemp's living in Scotland, etc. but all seemed to be clutching at straws I felt although understandable with just a name to go by.

So, I decided to check if there was a likely Charles Kemp living in Plymouth and came across Charles Kemp b.1877 with wife Fanny.   Looked for a marriage but couldn't find one so, knowing that Frances Dorothy said to be born in Glasgow, decided to look for a marriage on Scotlands People and duly found the one in 1914.   Since their parents didn't sound at all Scottish and couldn't find any likely births in Scotland turned back to English records and found what I posted earlier.

To me, this Charles and wife Fanny seem the ideal candidates to be the adoptive parents of Frances Dorothy.   Both of them living in Devon in 1911, and in 1914 they married in Glasgow (Pollokshields) the area where FD born in 1917.   Then, by 1939, all 3 of them are living in Plymouth.   Seemed too much of a coincidence to me.

Clearly, Frances Dorothy wasn't born with these names as birth index research on SP has now shown, nor would she have been born as Kemp - indeed, we don't know what Christian name/Surname she would have been registered with only that she was born 2/7/1917.   I suspect she was 'adopted' (albeit informally) as a baby and was given new Christian names by Charles Kemp and his wife before they subsequently moved to Devon.   Since I've since read that she had no Scottish accent no doubt she was very young when the move from Glasgow to Devon took place and feel sure that Charles and Fanny were the adoptive parents.

Annette

[Rosinish]

I have it now Annette!

I thought you meant as Fanny was ageing, she'd had the child with unknown forename but surname Kemp & later handed the child over/adopted her out to family for whatever reason & her forename had been changed.

I'm on track now! 

Annie

[loobylooayr]

It's going to be a very long shot (nigh on impossible) to identify the child with no knowledge of original name. The daughters of Frances Dorothy Kemp/Jenkin give her date of birth as 2/7/1917.
That date - July 2nd -  is also the date of her wedding in 1940. Obviously not impossible that she married on her birthday.
Her husband Charles Jenkin's d.o.b was 8/7/1917  (reply 19) - very similar to his wife's
I wonder if Frances knew for sure when her birthday was?

Looby

[olives]

Frances was probably “just handed over “ as didn’t this happen a lot in those days, when the tenements were full of folk (more often than not in pretty dire straits & couldn’t cope wall the children). [I found one family yesterday who had 15 children😳]

It’s sad to think of fanny being in a workhouse (my late grandmother was😞). It makes you wonder how she met Charles. Perhaps there was chance of work in Polkoshields....? I guess we might never really know. But I always say never die😁

[Rosinish]

Which is why I would suggest a dna test, a family finder kind not ydna.

I would agree as this seems to be the only way as Annette's find/theory is the best lead in my opinion as a good start.

If it's possible to find more on the Charles from Annette's post i.e. siblings then descendants of theirs, luck may have a story passed down about an 'adoption' with possibly a little more precise info. i.e. area of Glasgow which may help further with dna?

I think Frances was married twice from the info. Annette posted, I wonder if she had any other family?

As Looby says...

It's going to be a very long shot (nigh on impossible) to identify the child with no knowledge of original name.

I can't imagine how anyone would feel not knowing who their real parents were, very sad indeed!

It's been an interesting thread.

Annie

[olives]

Oh, Annette, Looby, Annie, what a confusing old game, eh?

I do appreciate we’ve got nothing concrete to go on, other than we know Charles worked at the Dockyard and FD was in Warleigh Avenue.

I’m definitely going to push on with Plymouth (is it okay for me to put a new thread under Plymouth just asking about the particular property there and the Mr & Mrs Best who also resided  there) ? I don’t want to do the wrong thing!

I’ll also research descendants down the line JUST in the hope that some tiny chink pops up.

However, re Annette’s post indicating FD had been married before, well the MC puts her down as spinster at the age of 22......🤔

Thanks for all,the hard work you’ve all put in. If only we weren’t tied by the 100 year rule.....but then it would be too easy I guess 😁