help needed please regarding a Frances Dorothy Kemp born in Glasgow

[Annette7]

I think I could have identified who 'Charles Kemp' was- not that it helps to identify a birth for Frances Dorothy.

As we know, Frances D. Kemp was in Plymouth in 1939 - also living in Plymouth were a Charles Kemp and wife Fanny.  It's a wee bit complicated by incorrect dates/names/places being stated along the way but this is a precis of it:

Charles Kemp was born 21/4/1877 Whitstable, Kent, son of James Kemp and Eliza Holden.
(In 1875 they'd had a son Charles William Kemp, died 1876 and second son Charles registered as plain Charles - it got somewhat confusing here as there was a Charles William Kemp also born in Kent (Teyning) who had the exact same birthdate - he joined the Royal Navy but later records show he never married and died 1944 Chatham).

Anyway, plain Charles Kemp joined the Royal Marines and shown as still single in 1911!!

Then we move to Scotland - Charles Kemp, 37, Boilermans Labourer, widower(?) son of James Kemp, fisherman and Eliza nee Holden, married Fanny Holdroff 32 (? definitely not), single, dau. of Charles Holdroff, Warrant Officer, R.N. deceased and Sarah Holdroff, previously Tong, nee Sedgewood (or similar) married 7/5/1914 Pollokshields, Glasgow.  Don't quite know how Charles said to be single 1911, and a widower in 1914 but definitely the same person as parents names on marriage certificate and his birthplace testify.

Fanny Holdroff is somewhat of an enigma herself when it came to give her age - she was actually born 9/2/1866 in Falmouth, Cornwall - okay whilst with family in 1871/1881/1891 but in 1901 states bc.1872, in 1911 in Devon bc.1874, 1914 bc.1882 at marriage and 1939 year is 1869.   So she was actually 48 when she married Charles Kemp (so explains why they would adopt a child) but not quite sure how she got away with stating she was only 32!

Obviously, have no idea why they both left Devon (where they each were in 1911) to marry in Pollokshields, Glasgow 3 years later or how long they stayed there for.   If Frances Dorothy was born 1917 then they must have stayed at least 3 years but back in Devon by 1939.

Annette

 


 

[Rosinish]

But if the above Charles emigrated to Canada, it raises the question of when he came back (if it is the same Charles, of course ) and was working at Plymouth Dockyard when frances married.

Olives...NO!  ...Definitely 2 different families although some strange coincidences!

The Charles who emigrated is the one on the Scottish (Charles) census' & I have found the 'Dockyard' (Charles) in England which I posted Reply #56 but with all the coincidences, I wouldn't rule out a connection for now as the Scottish family were in Glasgow where Frances was 'supposedly' born & the connections with the English family has Scottish relatives too.

Going by the birth yrs of both Charles' they're aged similar i.e. could be cousins but I don't want to confuse things by throwing this into the pot as it's just a thought!

All the places mentioned have connections with 'Boats' in some way so I'm keeing an open mind.
This conundrum certainly 'floats my boat' 

Can the relatives search their inner thoughts as to anything else regarding Frances, a possible mother's name or link to anywhere in particular? Do you know where the 'Glasgow' connection originated?

"We’d be chuffed to bits if anyone can find any of her adoption records and whether she had any siblings"

As far as I know, you will not find adoption records online for anyone in UK (I may be proved wrong) as it's closely guarded & as legal adoption didn't begin until 1926 the info. would fall under the 100 yrs privacy anyway.
This is interesting...https://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/806

Annie

Add...I see Annette has posted while I was typing, looking forward to reading 

[Rosinish]

Wow Annette...great work, well done! 

Fanny, child Frances...does make sense doesn't it.

Back to SP now to see what possibilities are left as I believe there may be an error for the birth yr for Frances 

Have you found a connection with the adoptive family Charles who I think may be Charles R W Kemp?

This boat has many sails 

Annie

[olives]

Annie - you’re “awash” with ponderables😉

The daughters of Frances have absolutely no names or any other info, as they said Frances would never talk about her past. She must have mentioned Glasgow at some point though for them to know that.

Apart from waiting for the 1921 census I might start looking at Frances’s husband’s side of the family (cor which we do have info) in the hope that something else comes to light.

Out of interest - on the Scottish indexes site - I found a Charles Kemp (bc 1879) imprisoned for 12 months in 1908. His address at the time was 85 Richard street, Glasgow. Hmm....

[olives]

Also, Frances can’t have been in Scotland for a great length of time as apparently she had no Scottish accent.

[Rosinish]

Annie - you’re “awash” with ponderables😉

Out of interest - on the Scottish indexes site - I found a Charles Kemp (bc 1879) imprisoned for 12 months in 1908. His address at the time was 85 Richard street, Glasgow. Hmm....

I have a habit of doing these things in my own research, maybe I'm just a very curious person but yes I tend to look at different angles when confronted with coincidences where there's possibilities.

A wee bit prior to 1908 but looks like a block of tenements with umpteen tenents but among them;

MURRAY JAMES Tenant Occupier
HOUSE NO 85 RICHARD STREET, GLASGOW
1905
VR010200571-

The surname Murray (again) is intriguing!

Annie

Add...There may be something in the papers about the court appearance?

[Rosinish]

A wee bit prior to 1908 but looks like a block of tenements with umpteen tenents but among them;

MURRAY JAMES Tenant Occupier
HOUSE NO 85 RICHARD STREET, GLASGOW
1905
VR010200571-

The Charles found in 1901 by jc26red was at the same address he's at here in 1905;

KEMP CHARLES Tenant Occupier
HOUSE NO 75 FORGE STREET, GLASGOW
1905
VR010200578-

Not much help other than knowing where he was between census' 

Annie

Add...I don't think I've seen what our Scottish Charles' occ. was for 1901?

[loobylooayr]

Hi all,

Well done Annette - looks good !

Fanny Holdroff must have been in dire straits in 1911 - she is an inmate of the Don Hope Refuge in Plymouth on the Census.
Like you Annie , I wonder if the name Frances given to the adopted baby is a nod to the adoptive mother. Would this appear on the birth certificate? Probably not. Chances are the baby wasn't a newborn when she was handed over to the Kemps.

Looby

[Rosinish]

I wonder if the name Frances given to the adopted baby is a nod to the adoptive mother. Would this appear on the birth certificate? Probably not. Chances are the baby wasn't a newborn when she was handed over to the Kemps.

Looby

If she was registered her mother's name will be on the cert. but as there's no Frances Dorothy Kemp it's difficult to know if she was registered or handed over unregistered i.e. with Fanny being a Kemp herself by then (assuming she is the mother) then Frances has been registered in another name?
There are only 6 born 1917 Kemp in Lanark.

Annie