help needed please regarding a Frances Dorothy Kemp born in Glasgow

[Rosinish]

Someone said earlier that 94 Warleigh Avenue, Plymouth, was the Jenkin household (frances’ Husband to be). However, the limited access I have to the 1939 register indicates it’s a Mr & Mrs Mason and Frances we know was a domestic servant for them.

You seem to have misread what Crisane posted...

Reply #2

"Frances D Kemp is on the 1939 register living in Plymouth Devon UK and is a domestic servant. She isn't married at this point but the surname Jenkin has been added so indicates a marriage from 1939 on"

The additon of the surname Jenkin being added would have been done after the marriage when updating the 1939 register to indicate she'd married & what her married surname was.

Is this where the family found Frances' DoB as 02/07/1917 or is it the date/month which was always celebrated although no confirmation for birth year?

Have you considered searching newspapers with surname & area for any possible clues?

Annie

Add...Have you found Charles in 1939 for clues?

[Rosinish]

Now the following 1901 census is just a thought and might need exploring
7Forge Street, Glasgow
Charles Kemp   31
Mary Kemp   29
Henrietta Kemp   8
Peter Kemp   6
Mary Kemp   4
Charles Kemp   8 Months
Elizabeth Shannon   52 visitor

A search on SP for a marriage/death for Henrietta has nothing which would fit.

Annie

Edit...I will recheck for a death as I see she has a middle name!

KEMP HENRIETTA MURRA 1892
644/3 1014 Dennistoun

No death found.

[Rosinish]

Thought this may be of interest...

1901 - 29 Chichester Rd, Portsmouth, Southampton

Charles R W Kemp 28 (c1873) Steam Engine Motor Fitter, b Chatham, Kent ***
Jane S Kemp 27 Wife
Charles G Kemp 4 Son
John E Kemp 1 Son
Peter D Murray 24 M Visitor, Insurance Agent, b Peterhead, Scotland
Winifred Murray 24 M Visitor, b Chatham, Kent
Jennie Murray 1 Visitor, b ? (couldn't read it), Portsmouth

ED 20 Piece 981 Folio 24 Pg 3 Sch16

1911 - (unsure of what details I'm allowed to post)

Charles 38 M Engine Fitter
Susan 37 M (using her middle name)
Charles 14
John 11
Alfred 8
Jean Murray (now Niece)
William Poarch 31 M Visitor
Nellie 31 Poarch 31 M Visitor

Couldn't help but notice the coincidence, the birth for Henrietta Murray Kemp 1892 (posted earlier) i.e. although not the same family there may be a connection, stranger things have happened...

The Charles Kemp mentioned in the last post, emigrated to Canada in 1920, one of his daughters, Henrietta, was already there.

Marriage
Charles Richard William Kemp 21 (c1873)
30 Jun 1894 St Margaret, Plumstead, Greenwich, England
Father Richard William Kemp
Spouse Jane Susannah Barker
Parish Register

*** UK, Shipping and Seamen WWI and WWII Rolls of Honour, 1914-1945 for Charles Richard William Kemp
BT 339:6 Mercantile Marine Officers; Nominal lists; copies of ´London Gazette´ (1916 - 1920)

30 Mar 1920 - Charles Richard William Kemp, Inspector of Engine Fitters, H M Dockyard, Portsmouth

1939
Charpeman Engine Fitter H M Dockyard Poste (RETD) (Chargeman)

Death
Charles R W Kemp 88 (c1873)
Reg Mar 1961 RD Portsmouth, County Hampshire Vol 6b Pg 567

Probate
Charles Richard William Kemp (MBE)
21 Drayton Road, North End, Portsmouth died 16 Mar 1961 Probate London 21 Apr
to John Edwin Kemp retired Chargeman of Fitters. Effects £1486 12s. 9d.

Annie

[loobylooayr]

Hi all,

Been following this thread with interest.

I believe the Charles Kemp in Glasgow 1901/1911  is living in Calgary, Alberta at the time of 1926 Census.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QP24-3N23
This ties in with the Henrietta Ewing mentioned earlier by jc26red
 There is also a later boarder crossing in 1931. Between USA and Canada.  He lists a mrs Henrietta Ewing on the boarder crossing card
She looks also to be in Calgary in 1926
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPK7-HCHD

I think Annie's find of Charles Kemp born Chatham Kent looks to be a better fit as the adoptive father of Frances Dorothy.
Looking at Peter D Murray of Peterhead (whose daughter Charles and family have living with them in 1911) - I found a death and an entry on the Register of Corrected Entries on Scotlands People. Very sad 

27th December 1914 at Stevenston, Ayrshire.
Peter Davidson Murray aged 37 Dynamite worker  married to Winifred Kemp   
Found dead on the Glasgow and South West Railway near Auchenharvie Cabin , Parish of Stevenson
Cause of death - Injuries to the head caused by being stuck by the engine of a passing train.
Informant - widow Winifred Murray
Usual address - 48 Windmill Street , Saltcoats.

I wonder what became of Winifred after this?  Just thinking of potential mother to another child 3 years later? She would be 40... not impossible. Another avenue to consider?

Looby

PS. Incidentally the death above is registered in the year 1915.

[loobylooayr]

Had another look on SP (but no credits left to view, unfortunately)

There is a death for a  Winifred E M Kemp , also registered as Winifred E M Murray in 1968 at Culross in Fife. The lady is recorded as 92 years old - so year of birth circa 1876.
I can't find any marriages between a Winifred Kemp or Murray to a Mr Murray or Kemp in Scotland.

I think this is the Murray family in 1911 at Devonport - intriguingly this transcript uses the term -
"Alias - DAVIDSON"  - I've never seen that before 
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW9J-SGR
Of course , all this could be barking up the wrong tree !

Looby

Added - Winifred Emma M Kemp married Peter Davidson Murray - Sept 1899 in Plymouth - with the middle initials this must be the lady who dies in Culross, Fife
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl?start=1899&end=1899&sq=3&eq=3&type=Marriages&vol=5b&pgno=539&db=bmd_1549919476&jsexec=1&mono=0&v=MTU1MjIxNjQwNDo2MWYyZmU2ZmU3OGZjZDFkNjQ4N2ZhMDdjMDEzMDczNGEyNzdkODM0&searchdef=s_surname%3Dmurray%26surname%3Dkemp%26db%3Dbmd_1549919476%26sq%3D1%26eq%3D4%26type%3DMarriages&action=Find

[Rosinish]

Been following this thread with interest.

27th December 1914 at Stevenston, Ayrshire.
Peter Davidson Murray aged 37 Dynamite worker  married to Winifred Kemp   
Found dead on the Glasgow and South West Railway near Auchenharvie Cabin , Parish of Stevenson
Cause of death - Injuries to the head caused by being stuck by the engine of a passing train.
Informant - widow Winifred Murray
Usual address - 48 Windmill Street , Saltcoats.

I wonder what became of Winifred after this?  Just thinking of potential mother to another child 3 years later? She would be 40... not impossible. Another avenue to consider?

Looby

PS. Incidentally the death above is registered in the year 1915.

Looby, it is interesting isn't it, the kind of enigmas we love 

I had seen this earlier after noticing the 'Murray' coincidence but 

MURRAY FRANCES 1917
611/2 12 Hurlford (Ayr)

Annie

Add...I couldn't resist looking but unfortunately not our Frances 

[loobylooayr]

Looby, it is interesting isn't it, the kind of enigmas we love 

Annie

For sure , Annie 
I just thought the Scottish link - Peter Murray and Winifred Murray nee. Kemp - could be important.
It ties someone from Charles Kemp's extended family with Scotland.
I looked at Murray births in 1917 too and saw that Ayrshire birth.
Of course, their might be no connection between Frances Dorothy Kemp and the Murrays
But we'll keep digging !

Olives - the 1921 Census (when it's released a few years from now) might help solve your quest.

Looby

[Rosinish]

Its one thing having lateral thinking but sometimes it can go into overload 

I wondered (if there is a connection) with the Glasgow Charles & family whether Henrietta Murray Kemp could be the mother being as she's in Canada by 1920 & single (is she)?

There's a marriage;

KEMP   CHARLES & RENNOCK   MARY RAE   1891   652/2 165   Coatbridge or Old Monkland

Mary appears to die in Aberdeen (from memory) as Kemp/Rennie?

This could be the Charles & Mary for the Scottish census' posted i.e. the parents of the children listed 1901 & 1911 with Henrietta but she was away in 1911, no death but I found a 'possible' matching her age (if she's the one in Canada later)?;

KEMP   HARRIET 1911 17 028/4/3    Shapinsay   Orkney

Orkney would be accessible from Aberdeen

I believe Frances was born to a family member but whether Francis was her birth name is ?

However...

Son of the above Charles R W Kemp?

Rosyth, Fife, Scotland, Dockyard Employee Books, 1892-1967

George Charles Kemp (names switched round? & a point from earlier)
Birth 17 Apr 1896 Devonport
Employment End Date 21 Nov 1916 Rosyth, Fife, Scotland

His occ. is H S  SKS Labourer (it's difficult to make out)

Marriage

Minnie M Davey
Mar Q 1932 Portsmouth, Hampshire
Spouse Charles G Kemp
Vol 2b Pg 1014

Charles G Kemp (Married)
Birth 17 Apr 1896
Residence 1939 Portsmouth, Hampshire
Occ. Painter (Assistant)
Spouse Minnie M Kemp

Probate
Charles George Kemp
Death Date 26 Dec 1976
Death Place 9 Darlington Road, Southsea, Portsmouth
Probate Date 29 Mar 1977
Probate Registry Winchester
£8809
No names given

This is the son of the English Charles, was in Scotland close to 1917 i.e. could he be a candidate as the 'true' father as he didn't marry until 1932?

Annie

Add...Hopefully if not solved by then, the 1921 English census will state exactly where Frances was born i.e. not just Scotland? 

[olives]

Goodness me, LoobyLoo and Annie, do you both ever sleep at night with all these conundrums in your head🤔

I had started to think Frances may have been born to a family member. I had seen that Henrietta Murray was the daughter of a Mary Rennock (also spelt Rennick elsewhere) - who was married to Charles st the time of the 1901 census.

The three additional children born after then - and showing on the 1911 census - i.e. Eliza, Charlotte and Catherine, I see that Catherine married an Andrew Walker Stewart. She died in April 1983. I’m going to see if there’s any mileage in exploring any possible trees for this surname, just in the hope that it throws some light on all this.

But if the above Charles emigrated to Canada, it raises the question of when he came back (if it is the same Charles, of course ) and was working at Plymouth Dockyard when frances married.