Josephine Flanagan b.C1870-C1875 Dublin, Ireland.

[gazza1966]

aghadowey,
Sorry if i sound confused, i gave up researching for two years as i didnt think i could forward my research, till i got a message from a friend about a marriage record of Josephine Flanagan who's father was John Flanagan a Commercial Traveller, so im trying to find any info on John if he was married before.

[aghadowey]

Still confused    Best to start and work back through all possible records.

Your Josephine Flanagan (father John Flanagan, commercial traveller) married Bernard Whelan in 1891.
1901 census Bernard Whelan's widowed mother-in-law Maria Flanagan living with Whelan family. Stands to reason she is Josephine's mother and had been married to a John Flanagan who died before 1901 census.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS6T-9LX

Now, we have a death in 1897 Dublin for a John Flanagan, commercial traveller where informant was wife Maria.
Why would any of this not be the correct people and how can you get a Gertrude (Tiffin) Flanagan Forsythe from Waterford (not a Catholic) connect to your family 

[gazza1966]

Gertrude is a Roman Catholic,

GERTRUDE ANN TIFFIN baptised 22 Nov 1863 St John's Co Waterford.

I dont think John and Gertrude had a great relationship, i found in a court that John tried to take Gertrude's life.

Also i spoke with my mum, and she recalls chatting to her father William Frederick Flanagan b.1886, he was 10 when his father John died, thats how confused i am by that John died 1896/97

[Sinann]

Something is mixed up
William Frederick Flanagan born 1886
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02600/1960480.pdf
Father John Michael, traveller

In March 1889  William Tiffin The Mall and Lombard St. Waterford sold up as he was moving to Belfast
In 1887 Mina Tiffin married Alexander Somerville in Belfast
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1887/10813/5943959.pdf
in 1901 William Tiffin is living with Alexander.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Ormeau/Jocelyn_Street/1210919/
William is RC but no one else is, including his wife.
If the records posted earlier are the correct Gertrude none of her marriages were RC.

Is this a case where the father baptised his children RC but the circle they mixed in wasn't.

[aghadowey]

Something is VERY mixed up. Last night I said you need to work back step by step through all available records. If you said that Your grandfather was "William Frederick Flanagan b.1886, he was 10 when his father John died" then we would not have wasted time searching for Josephine etc. at that point.

Now, are there any other FACTS you already have?

William Frederick Flanagan born 16 May 1886 Bank Lane, Waterford- parents John Michael Flanagan (traveller) & Gertrude nee Tiffin- LINK

Gertrude Anne Tiffin, age 20, The Mall, daughter of Wm. Tiffin, married 1883 Waterford to John Michael Flanagan, accountant- LINK

If Gertrude was 20 in 1883 then she was born c1863 and can't be the mother of Josephine (Flanagan) Whelan born circa 1870- aside from the fact that Josephine has totally different parents!

[aghadowey]

I think I've got it almost sorted now- just want to finish checking addresses to confirm what I have found. Would have been done last night if William Frederick Flanagan was mentioned at the start 

[gazza1966]

aghadowey what have you found for me 😁😄 any info would be much appreciated.

About my grandfather William Frederick Flanagan he married in 1909 in Winchester Hants England to Kate Bulpitt, and none of us included mum didnt know either, my mum was shocked and a bit angry, the certificate arrived last friday stating father Jack Flanagan deceased (Traveller).

When William married twice to my gran Cecelia Catherine Moore in 1915 and 1916 in Cork, he stated he's a bachelor, and that wasn't true.🤔

[aghadowey]

Lots of drama here since Tuesday night so only now getting back to this thread.

William Flanagan's 1915 marriage lists father as John Flanagan (mason)- LINK - as does the 1916 marriage- LINK. 1915 ceremony was Church of Ireland and 1916 one Catholic.

Now, this is going to be complicated so broken up into a few sections. Starting with William Tiffin...

William Tiffin (c1824 Isle of Wight-24 Dec.1906), Sgt. Royal Artillery/musician/band sgt., m.(1858 Plymouth dist.) Jane Vigors/Vigurs (c1825/c1838 Falmouth, Eng.-31 Dec.1906)
   Waterford Mail, 16 Dec.1856: … musical world are respectfully informed that I, WILLIAM TIFFIN, late of the Band of the 77th Regiment, and now residing this City, ready to give Lessons Music on the Cornopean, Barritone, and every other … of brass or wind instrument. …
   1861-1889 leader of Waterford Artillery Band, etc.
   Mar.1889 auction of Waterford house- “William Tiffin (who is going to reside in Belfast)”
   1894- band of 8th Belfast Company, Mr. William Tiffin, band-master
   Belfast Newsletter, 28 July 1903: NEW CITY HALL TO ROYAL VICTORIA hospital.  … Amongst the heroes of note who were entitled to room the stand may be mentioned Mr. William  Tiffin, eighty-four years ago, who joined army the reign King William IV, and took part in numerous engagements, including …
   Northern Whig, 19 Nov.1903: One of the veterans, William Tiffin, of the 77th, boasted 43 years’ service at home and abroad, dating back to 1836; …
   https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1906/05549/4556862.pdf
   https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1906/05549/4556864.pdf
   Larne Times, 5 Jan.1907: PATHETIC INCIDENT. BELFAST VETERAN’S DEATH. Pathetic interest attaches to the death of Mrs. Jane Tiffin, which occurred in Belfast Monday, reason of the fact that her husband Mr. Tiffin, only passed away this day week. Mr. Tiffin, who was over …

[aghadowey]

Children of William Tiffin & Jane Vigors/Vigurs-
1. Frances Ellen”Fanny” Tiffin (1859 Falmouth-1928) m.(1881 Galway) Michael Aylward (c1855 Kilkenny-aft.1901), coachman
   https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1881/11012/8026547.pdf
   www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Blackrock/Markstown_Road/1314142
   www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Stillorgan/Newtown_Castlebyrn/92344
   www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/South_Dock/Mount_Street__Upper/85464 (Samuel Walker, Lord Chancellor of Ireland)
   a. Anastatia Aylward (c1888 Dublin-aft.1911)
   b. Mary Aylward (c1889 Dublin-aft.1911)
   c. John Aylward (c1892 Belfast-aft.1911)
   d. Michael Aylward (c1894 Monkstown-aft.1911)
   e. Edward Aylward (c1896 Monkstown-aft.1911)
   f. Frances/Fanny Aylward (c1897 Monkstown-aft.1911)
   g. Margaret Mary Aylward (1900-aft.1911) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1900/01987/1764956.pdf
   h. Charles Aylward (1901-aft.1911) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1901/01934/1748509.pdf
2. Mina Jane Tiffin (1861 Waterford-1943) m.(1887 Waterford) Alexander Somerville (c1853-aft.1901)
   a. Mary Jane Somerville (1888 Belfast-aft.1901) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1888/02498/1926700.pdf
   b. Richard John Somerville (c1890-aft.1901)
   c. Alexander Somerville (c1895-aft.1901)
   d. Anne A. Somerville (c1897-aft.1901)
   e. Margaret Campbell Somerville (1899 Belfast-aft.1901) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1899/02044/1782618.pdf
   f. Esther Frances Somerville (1903 Belfast) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1903/01882/1732215.pdf
3. Jessie Lowry Tiffin (c1862-1867 Waterford)
4. Gertrude Anne Tiffin (1863 Waterford)
5. William Charles Tiffin (1865 Waterford-aft.1906) m.(1886 Belfast) Elizabeth Somerville
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03581/2320390.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1886/10840/5957509.pdf
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Lucan/Lucan_Petty_Common/1267818
   Northern Whig, 15 May 1903: Drunk and Disorderly. William Tiffin was charged with being drunk and disorderly and assaulting the police. Prisoner had been previously imprisoned for similar …
Belfast Newsletter, 15 May 1903: A man named William Tiffin, for being drunk and assaulting the police, was sent prison for month.
   www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Drumbeg/Ballygowan/248838
   a. Jessie Lowry Tiffin (1887 Belfast-aft.1911) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1887/02563/1948064.pdf
   b. David Campbell Tiffin (1889 Belfast-aft.1901) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1889/02488/1923321.pdf
   c. William Charles Tiffin (c1891 Belfast-aft.1911)
   d. Margaret Campbell Tiffin (1892 Belfast-aft.1911) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1892/02328/1871805.pdf
   e. John Somerville Tiffin (1895 Belfast-aft.1901) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1895/02231/1841145.pdf
   f. Benjamin Somerville Tiffin (1896 Belfast-1897)
   https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02153/1816752.pdf   
   https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1897/05874/4665693.pdf
   g. Elizabeth Somerville Tiffin (1899 Belfast-aft.1911) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1899/02044/1782618.pdf
   h. Victor Reginald Tiffin (1904 Belfast-aft.1911) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1904/01819/1711902.pdf
6. Richard John Tiffin (1866 Waterford-1869 Waterford)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1866/03506/2289001.pdf