Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher

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Re: Gipsy Dan Boswell
« Reply #202 on: Sunday 27 March 16 17:29 BST (UK) »
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Oral history as past down was Williams Wife came from Scotland, in records She is said to be registered in Yorkshire, my Mother when young would plait Her hair and She would tell of the old  history, my Mother telled me of these times, She said She was born round a place named Musselburgh  in the mid to late 1800s, on a record that was shown to me it says Her Fathers name was Hartley, who Her Mother was I don't know, also the first name She was known by was not the one used on any record I have seen of Her, i think the two Williams below are Her Husband and Son, who Walter is i don't know but Her Husband sure as lots of names so it could be Him, young William thoe is only about 14 not 20, and the name he gives as David could be a clue, my Mother  telled of a young boy who died, I always thought She meant Her Mothers Son, but now it could mean Young William had a Brother, or his Grandad was named David Hartley and a Child that died was named after Him, who knows it could or could not be a clue,  these are rip roaring Gipsy People of their own day, so the Hartleys of Scotland could be related to these great People, who the Hartleys are I do not know, I did ask Vince once, he asked His Wife who I think is a Boswell and knows things for Shes in with the Church, She said they were Gipsy People, who ever they are thoe it seems like they could be Related   

Nottinghamshire 1907 

                                  ALLEGED FALSE PRETENCES AT NEWARK.

 Hartley, alias Walter Wiltshire, no fixed abode, was charged Newark Police-court this morning, before the Mayor (Councillor H. E. Braneton),. with obtaining  a guinea with false pretences, from Edmund Crow, saddler, Mill-gate, Newark. Prosecutor said that on Thursday morning prisoner came into  his shop and said he was from Catesby and Co. with cork lino. They had been fitting up the Clinton Arms, he said, and had nine or ten yards left over from the job. and they were authorised to sell it regardless of cost in order to save carriage back to the factory. He showed one of Catesbys cards, which wes printed: “We authorise our workmen to sell all remnants re-gardless of cost to save carriage back to our warehouse.” This Satisfied witness that it was Cateeby’s, and he gave prisoner one guinea for the stuff. Subsequently made inquiries at the Clinton Arms, and in consequence gave information to the police. On this evidence the Chief Constable asked for a remand until Monday. Bail was asked for and granted in two sureties of £25 each, and prisoner Himself in £5O.

Nottingham 1910

                NOTTINGHAM MAN CHARGED WITH AN OFFENCE COMMITTED IN 1903.

 A case illustrative the long arm of the law came before Messrs. T. Shipstone and J. E. Pendleton at the Nottingham Summons Court to-dav, when William Wiltshire, alias Hartley, of 1, Kelk's-yard, Count-street, Nottingham, was summoned for using obscene language September 7th, 1903, and for assaulting Police-Constable Manners May 26th. The evidence showed that seven years ago the defendant did not appear and answer a summons, and a warrant had been taken out against him. Last Thursday he assaulted Police-Constable Manners, and this afforded the opportunity of a charge being preferred against him. The Bench overlooked the first offence, and sentenced him 21 days' imprisonment for assaulting the constable.

Derbyshire 1914

                                               USELESS  VARNISH.

William Wilsher (20), hawker, giving his address as 26, Bridgehouses, Sheffield, was charged at Chesterfield, to-day, with committing what the -Mayor (Alderman E. Shentall) said was “a very mean trick.” Two charges of obtaining money by false pretences were preferred against the youth, who is the son of Sheffield hawkers. on Friday', the 13th inst., prisoner called at her house and asked if she wanted to buy some varnish, saying he was a varnisher, that he had been doing work at Mr. Logging house at Brampton, and that the varnish he had over his master was allowing him to sell. She told him she did not want any varnish, but he produced a bottle and a piece of cloth and applied some “varnish” out of the bottle to an old chair. The stuff seemed all right and he offered to sell the bottleful for 2s. She ultimately bought it for 9d. Her son was about to “try” the varnish, but none would come out of the bottle, an examination showed a second cork lower down the neck of the bottle. This cork was pushed in and the liquid that came out was nothing but coloured water. Witness afterwards identified the prisoner at the police station. Mr. Frank Stokes, paint and varnish manufacturer. said the mixture in the two bottles produced was 25 per cent water, with a small quantity of linseed oil and Bismarck brown. As a varnish the stuff was absolutely useless and was not worth a penny.

Prisoner pleaded guilty on both charges, The Bench decided to convict, and the Chiefconstable announced a conviction at Sheffield against the prisoner, who gave the name of " David Hartley" Mrs. Wilsher hereupon burst into tears and she besought the Bench “not to let her darling go down.” The uproar she created led to her being ejected from the Court. "We consider it a very mean trick to defraud a blind woman,” observed the Mayor to young Wilsher, “and you will be fined £2. including costs, on each charge, or one month’s imprisonment for each offence.”

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 why did they not tell me about David and Mariha being in the grave, i never said anything wrong, it was my Cousins who wrote to me for answers, now you have said you write also to my Cousins yet they told you who was in the grave, and you have now told me, i can only thank you for that, i do hope people were not just being bad to me, maybe they never new then what they know now.

No one told me about who was in the grave, I purchased all the burial register's to find out, I have spent a great deal of money on dna , certificates and registers in the last year... I was told it was believed William Wilsher the father was in the grave but with the details of the death date I found, it shows its the bother to Rebecca...

I have been lucky in my research to meet distance cousins who have willing aided and talked to me about the larger Romani  family of old. I feel a need to preserve the history of my ancestor kin, now I have finally connected with them.

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It sounds like my Cousins never new the truth either if they told you old William was maybe in the grave, and it turns out young William was there, did you see the photo of young William with his Sister from the early 1900s, my Cousins have a copy, did they show you it, young William and Rebecca are very hansome indeed, i found a web site called My Heritage that as people on doing family trees, someone as lots of information about the Wilshire, Jones Winter connection from the early times of the 1800s, i just look at thousands of pagers of information that come on internet, i dont know what i am doing, things just pop up and sometimes they have info in them most times its alright to for you get to learn about history, i do not truthfully think theres a person in the country who can match the knowledge i have of most Gipsy familys of Britain, i have read all about them, thousands of articles, i know so much about Gipsy familys from hundreds of yeares, the older writers and evan some or most people today have it all wrong, you just would not believe the things i know, i was raised knowing about things as normal, everything of the past to me was normal, it carried on to, just the same way, into this time in my life, but i am a quiet sort of a person myself, this below is a little of the information on that site, it says if you join up you can get a free months trial to see if you like it, so you will not evan have to spend no more money, it sounds like youve broke yourself, i will have to start a collection for you, i,ll start it of with a pound, you may already have been on the web site and talked to people but just incase you have not this is a little of the information they have on one page that you do not have to signe up to
Jane Winter (born wilshire), born 1830
Jane Winter (born wilshire) was born in 1830, to William wilshire and Lydia wilshire (born Jones).
William was born on July 19 1805, in Long bennington Lincolnshire.
Lydia was born in 1812, in codbrough.
Jane married Robert Winter.
Robert was born in 1828, in newmarket lincolnshire.
They had 10 children: Walter Winter, John Winter and 8 other children.
Jane lived in 1881, at address.
She lived in 1901, at address.
She lived on month day 1911, at address.
Documents of Jane Winter (born wilshire)
Jane Winter in 1861 England & Wales Census
Jane Winter was born circa 1835, at birth place.
Jane married Robert Winter.
Jane lived in 1861, at address.
Jane Winter in 1881 England & Wales Census
Jane Winter was born circa 1837, at birth place.
Jane married Robt Winter.
They had 9 children: Alexander Winter, John Winter and 7 other children.
Jane lived in 1881, at address.
Jane Winter in 1891 England & Wales Census
Jane Winter was born circa 1835, at birth place.
Jane married Robert Winter.
Jane lived in 1891, at address.
Jane Winter in 1851 England & Wales Census
Jane Winter was born circa 1830, at birth place.
Jane married Robert Winter.
They had one child: Thoophilus Winter.
Jane lived in 1851, at address.

ps... do you see how there is another Alexander  and a Walter,  i do not know what is on the site but i know from reading the free page that they let you read that there are people on there who know more, i do not go on any web sites only this one, i only ever log on here, i could join up and pay for everything but it would send me mad, i just love what i am doing here, thats why i dont go on ancetry web sites for i would have to stop doing this type of research

I have been looking at records of the Jones from up this way, not much about, i will put everything on for you another time, when i was doing my researchers from the South about familys like the Beeneys i came across records of the Southern Jones, i found one saying how this Jones man was speaking the real old Romany Lanuage, they sound like the old time Gipsys to me, the Jones up this way who married one of the older Williams may just be a town Girl, you may never find out, but i will put a few names and locations on for you to bear in mind

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I have a fair size tree of the Winter/Wilsher blood line mapped out on ancestry, I have purchased a small number of certificates for them atm... I plan on purchasing a lot more.

My dads/uncles DNA together matches 2 people from the Robert Winter/Janes Winter nee Wilshaw blood line, 3 people from the John Holmes/ Rebecca Holmes nee  Wilsher line and 3 people  from the Joseph Wilsher and Elizbeth Wilsher nee Woodward line.

Interestingly a person we matched on dna from the  Robert Winter/Wilsher line... Jane Winter nee Wilsher ended up living with his direct family in her later age. I seen a image of his grand mother, and she does look like a relation... Their family ended up in OZ.

County/Island-Lancashire
Country-England
Street Address-29 Beaconsfield Rd

Name:John Winter-Age-46
Name:Jane Winter nee Wilshaw-Age-75
Name:Mary A Winter-Age-41
Name:Mary Winter-Age-18 (Grand Mother to DNA match)
Name:Betsy Winter-Age-16
Name:Thomas Winter-Age-13
Name:Willie Winter-Age-7

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You have to be carefull with the d.n.a, i think everyone would have to have it done to get a true result, lots of things go on in familys over the yeares, lots of half this and that, a bit of that and a lot of this, i think in a family there is room for everyone, i will write back with the information i found on the Jones that i talked about on my last post, you never know something may connect to future finds, remember save everything, i must have millions of notes, why did you not look at the connection with the Smiths that Joseph was said to be related to, Joseph address was said to be Gedling street, i spoke with the old Smiths yeares ago, they are dead now, they said they are related to the Wiltshires, they told me i was their Cousin, i never new what they was on about, they could speak good old Gipsy words to, i will write back another time on another day             

   A DERBY DISTURBANCE. NOTTM.
HAWKER HIS WEALTHY SONS-IN-LAW.
 
Nottingham 1919

A  melee in the Derby Cattle Market on Friday, in which prisoner was rescued from custody and a constable had to make use of his staff, had a sequel at the police-court to-day. Joseph Wiltshire, hawker, 6, Gedling-street, Nottingham, was fined 10s.  assaulting Pc. Bristow, and for assaulting Special Constable H. A. Wallace (market  superintendent), whom he struck several times on the face and body; while Alfred Smith, dealer,  living in a van at Cotton-lane, was fined 7s. 6d. for fighting. Bristow apprehended Smith and his antagonist, whereupon Wiltshire (the father-in-law of the men) and others intervened and succeeded in getting one of the prisoners away. Wiltshire then ran off, but was stopped by Mr. Wallace who told the Bench that Wiltshire made a mad struggle for freedom. Wiltshire, against whom there were eight previous convictions. including one for police assault, stated that  his sons-in-law had a lot of money in their possession and was afraid they would be robbed.

ps... i did find a record of the Gipsys of Cotton lane the Smiths, then i went and lost it, try as i can i have not re found it yet but i will, when you find these types of records they sometimes have more names on like a Cousin, this then allows you to search for the knew name, then you find great connections, i have some great records, wait till i show you the record about Joseph and the pheasant, wow, thats a good one

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You have to be carefull with the d.n.a, i think everyone would have to have it done to get a true result, lots of things go on in familys over the yeares, lots of half this and that, a bit of that and a lot of this, i think in a family there is room for everyone, i will write back with the information i found on the Jones that i talked about on my last post, you never know something may connect to future finds, remember save everything, i must have millions of notes, why did you not look at the connection with the Smiths that Joseph was said to be related to, Joseph address was said to be Gedling street

The Smith families are on the list to research, there are many marriages with Wilsher/Smith in the greater tree though... I am researching and building about  7 trees of families that connect directly to the Wilsher's... Its just getting the time to do it all.

I use Dna as mostly just a marker to aid in growing the overall trees, It has proven my correct place in the tree... So I am at least greatful for that.

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I found these few storys, remember all their names, none of these storys may have nothing todo with the Jones you are looking for, but you never know in the future things just pop up and its then that collecting vast amounts of knowledge helps out, plus you get to be very connected to the goings of and doings of all types of people, you get a feel for the history and times, this to is of great help, you find key words that you know may lead you forwards, in these storys there is much more information contained within them, these are just mostley extracts, i know some may be way of the mark or evan transcribed in a way not quite right, i put these on to ,to show you how a person can go wrong.
There are many Jones from the South, they are connected to lots of other Gipsys, i have lots of storys about them, one day hopefuly i am going back to another page on here i have been writing on and i will write massive amounts up of the great Gipsy People of the South, so the Jones you are looking for like i say may be just locals, who knows, but good luck in your research


Saturday 20 August 1803
 Northampton Mercury
  Northamptonshire 
 
  about five feet eight Inches high, black Hair, and is a Gipsy, and lately resided about Luton, in Bedfordshire. Any Person' or Persons apprehending the said William Row and Joseph Jones, alias Smith, and delivering them to us, the Constables of Wing 

Friday 13 July 1804
 Stamford Mercury
  Lincolnshire     
—Abraham Moses, aged 29, and Catherine Jones, aged 25, for uttering base coin at Till-bridge
     
 Friday 20 July 1804
 Stamford Mercury
  Lincolnshire 
 
The indictment against Abraham Moses, charged with uttering base coin, was thrown out by the Grand Jury and Catherine Jones, trial for a like offence, was acquitted   


Friday 29 September 1848
  Lincolnshire Chronicle
  Lincolnshire 

MAGISTRATES' MEETINGS
  Barton.—At the justice-room, before the Rev. Charles Barton.— Bartie Jones and Annie, his wife, gipsies, were charged with stealing a mare, at Saxelby, on the morning of the 5th instant, the property of William Ostick ...
 
 Friday 02 March 1849
  Stamford Mercury
  Lincolnshire 

 Feb. 24, before T. A. Cooke, Esq the Rev. W. Strong, Lieut -Col. Hardy, and Thos. Atkinson, Esq Three gipsies named Moses Jones, Jos. Hyde, and Elix Eldred, were convicted of encamping in Frog flail lane on the 24th. They paid the cost. 7s

Friday 16 March 1849
  Hull Advertiser and Exchange Gazette
  Yorkshire
Saturday 17 March 1849
 Lincolnshire Chronicle
  Lincolnshire 
Lincolnshire Assizes
 
  Mare-stealing at Saxilby. Barthy Jones, aged 20, was charged with having stolen a mare, in September, at Saxilby, the property William Ostick. 
 
Friday 28 November 1851
  Lincolnshire Chronicle
  Lincolnshire

faul Stealing. —On Saturday last, before the Rev. H. Holdsworth, a man named John Jones, was examined on a charge of having, in the night of Friday the 14th instant, stolen out of a close of land in Gosberton
 
Friday 11 June 1852
  Lincolnshire Chronicle
  Lincolnshire 

The Stocks. —On Saturday morning last, James Jones, of Westhorpe, Southwell, tinman, was placed in the parish stocks, on the Kirklington road, for six hours, for nonpayment of the penalty

 Friday 10 September 1852
  Lincolnshire Chronicle
  Lincolnshire 

John Jones, vagrant, was charged with begging at Middlegate the previous day. Committed to Southwell house of correction for fourteen days 
 
Friday 03 August 1855
Lincolnshire Chronicle
 Lincolnshire 

Mary Ann Jones, alias Green, was charged with receiving, knowing it to have been stolen, a lady's night dress, and two yards of black silk
     
Thursday 22 January 1857
 Nottinghamshire Guardian
  Nottinghamshire 
 
POLICE OFFICE. NOTTINGHAM
Wednesday. Dog Fighting at Two o'clock n the Morning. —John Jones, 25, tinman and brazier, was charged with having created a breach of the peace in Union Street, about half-past two this morning. Jones, with several others, was setting dogs on to fight

Friday 03 June 1859
  Lincolnshire Chronicle
  Lincolnshire 

In St. Peter's-at-Gowts, Lincoln, on Friday last, Sarah daughter of John Jones, tinman, aged 9 months. 

Saturday 13 June 1868
  Lincolnshire Chronicle
  Lincolnshire 

  At Heckington, on the 2nd inst., Jesse Burgen to Sarah on the lst inst., Samuel Tearing to MaryAnn Wisher and the same day, William Jones to Ann 

saturday 02 February 1884
 Nottingham Evening Post
  Nottinghamshire 

AN Apprentice Wanted, Tinman and Brazier, —Apply to James Jones, 46, Glasshouse-street, Nottingham. 
 
 Saturday 03 September 1892
 Nottingham Evening Post
 Nottinghamshire 

Coroner Footitt, at the Reindeer Inn, relative to the death of Mr. James Jones, aged 59, tinman and brazier, of 88, Northgate, who died very suddenly on the previous night.— Mrs.' Mary Ann Jones said the deceased, her husband, was 59 years old, 
 
 
  Tuesday 10 August 1948
  Nottingham Evening Post
  Nottinghamshire 

Warrant Issued A week ago, Cornelius Jones. 32, a gipsy, of the Caravan Site, Beechdale-road, Nottingham, appeared before a special court at Long Eaton charged with assaulting two police officers. He was remanded on bail in a sum of £lO.  .

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I have been reading over your posts to try and work out who are the people in what you have found, you mention familys like Lewis, Paddock, and Owen, I have lived this way all my life and do not know no one whos family name is of the ones you have found, so I looked at the records and sure anough they are over this way from the older times, the Paddocks sound like they have something in them, the Lewises barrow boys and the Owens to much the same, I put Fred Ballington on becoures you mentioned his name, what I think is, well names are known in a certain time, things happen at certain times, then in later times names die out as familys quieten down or move out of the area, I have been looking at other names from around the area we talk of and they are still around in my time, they have no connection to what we speak of, all I mean is sometimes names and familys live on for generations, other times names are big in a certain time but then die out, the barrow boy hawkers are wide boys, they would be tough to, plenty of money all the time, nothing to spend it on thoe, just have a good drink, their day round this way is much done, Sneinton is finished now, maybe the last 15 yeares as seen the most change, nearly all the pubs have shut down, turned into mosques and shops, all the old familys have mostley gone, I don’t rearly know how it all happened, or why, the storys from the times we talk of would be the way people were for hundreds of yeares, right up till my time, first it got more bad about the ninetys when the drugs it the City, it got much more brutal then, you had the imigrants from the sixtys, from the West Indies and India and such, this was alright and everybody was good with it, now though its all gone crackers, the young people will be alright when the older ones are dead, for the younger ones only know how things are now, they will never know how everyone used to know everyone, I don’t evan know where did everyone go, in the City now theres millions of people from millions of places, I used to like it how it used to be, but others now think this is the way forwards, I just whatch the worled go by and let things be, I have put some records on for you, I will find the Woodwards next, there are lots from the times you write of around this way, but I don’t know if they connect in any way to the names you write about, I will finish with a few names of others you write of then I will show you and tell of the Wilshers, its strange how you say all these family names like Lewis, Paddock, and Owen, well there are only a couple of cross over storys, the records I found though have lots of information in them that I have not wrote down, these on the next pagers are just extracts, if any sound right to you, well you may find much more information in the fuller records, you are right to look for all the history, it’s the right way to learn the truth of everything, I know you have your reasons for writing, that’s fine by me, remember I told you a few times to just say your peace, do you see how you see that theres no chains on me, you may say anything you wish to say, it is of no matter, thank you for writing about the boy David, i will write about the Wilshers soon, it will take some time, there all over the place, i think maybe only a few settled around here around the 1900s, the old Joe who you talk about, and a few relatives, wait untill you read all the information i have,  there are not many only a couple of connecting storys with the names you mentioned, but i think it is best to understand the full picture, i will show you the real truth soon

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So this is the information you put on, you said three Wilsher Girls married with these boys from this way,  these are there last names below and storys of them, there is a couple of cross over storys but not much, i just wanted to help you to learn as i have learned from you, you are right, you are so right to seek out the full truth

Lewis
Paddock
Owen


Marriage-25 May 1915-Nottingham
Ernest Owen a carter son to Thomas Owen marriage to Mary Wilsher a hawker child of Joseph Wilsher a hawker.
Ernest Owen and Mary Wilsher Address 6 Gedling st.
Witness Mary's sister Sarah Wilsher.

Joseph Wilsher of 6 Gedling Street Nottingham

So I have writ about a Joseph Wilsher of a 6 Gedling Street Nottingham in past posts...

I have long believed he was related to the rest of the Wilsher family. I purchased the marriage certificate of my 3rd great aunt and boom, her address is given as a 6 Gedling street... This added with her sister Harriet Paddock nee Wilsher also showing up in a news report with a person from the same address...  I am starting to think this Joseph is in fact their dad, Husband to Elizabeth Wilsher nee Woodward.
 
Harriet Paddock- I believe Harriet Paddock to be Harriet Wilsher, sister of Sarah Wilsher 1900, also daughter of Joseph Wilsher 1865, and Elizabeth Woodward 1863.

Harriet Wilsher born 1897, married Oliver Paddock in 1914, remarried Fred Ballington in 1949.
Father Joseph Wilsher 1865 and Mother Elizabeth Woodward 1863.

Nottingham Evening Post - Thursday 09 August 1923
"DESERVED WHAT SHE GOT."

MAGISTRATE'S REMARK ASSAULT CASE. •

At the Guildhall to-day, Mary Ann Brierley, charged Harriet Paddock, 25, housewife, 36, Pipestreet, and Joseph, alias Jim, Wiltshire, 50. described by the police as a poacher, of 6, Gedlingstreet., with assault. Mr. A. F. (defending) 


"Sarah Wilsher 1900 atb was the child of Joseph Wilsher 1865 and Elizabeth Woodward 1866 atb, both Elizabeth and Joseph were travellers settling in Nottingham.

Sarah Wilsher 1900 atb married John T Lewis 1899 in Nottingham 1917, Sarah and John both worked Sneinton market... Sarah Wilsher's Family sold carpets and John Lewis's Family Sold Fruit."


1939 - Nottingham launched its slum Clearance scheme and, as part of that, five streets in the market area: Finch street, Sheridan street, Brougham street, Lucknow street and Pipe street were demolished. This gave the Sneinton market an additional 2 3/4 acres- more than twice the previous area.