Finally admitted defeat!

[iolaus]

I'd stick his details on here and let people here have a go - if anyone can break down walls it's the guys here

If they married in Cardiff, especially around the Docks area the idea of him working at sea is quite likely

[jacky_d]

Jim1 the Family name is the husbands, the boys took on the husbands name until 1904 but the name they took on after 1904 was neither the Mothers maiden name or the fathers name or the Husbands name as mentioned "untraceable"! on both the boys birth certificates are the mothers maiden names.
Thank you for taking your time to reply.

[jacky_d]

Hi familydar thank you again for your reply, that's a really good question your asking me and that's why i like other peoples thoughts as it makes me think and you make a valid point due to the fact they had there own first child in 1890 and from then there is quite a good paper trail of him and his family eg news paper cutting etc but iv never found any thing at all from 83 to 90 which included him so it is just an assumption on my part as i didn't think it could be feasible that she would have had 2 other children by another man whilst he was around but i'm guessing i wasn't there so i should be so quick to make such assumptions.
Thank you again.

[jim1]

I have now found the father of the first 2 children

What were your sources?
So the scenario is that after 1904 the first 2 boys took on another surname but the rest of the family didn't. Is this correct?

[jacky_d]

Jim1 "So the scenario is that after 1904 the first 2 boys took on another surname but the rest of the family didn't. Is this correct?"    yes you are correct!
My Sources
Birth certificates for both sons,  Birth record from the workhouse for 2nd son. death record of my great grandfather. Burial records and grave of my great grandfather and Grandmother, Marriage certificate of the 2ns son, Baptism record of eldest son, word of mouth from my Dad, and lots of elders from both 1st son and 2nd son,  and finally DNA from 2 people from eldest son lineage, 3 people from 2nd sons lineage, and 4  from my Lineage! 

Thank you very much Jim1 for your interest.

[jim1]

OK. You'll have to excuse all of the questions but it's quite difficult playing catch-up with no names.
So with made up names you have 2 births with father as John Smith & mother as Mary Brown.
From around 1890 the 2 sons are brought up by Fred & Mary Jones & use Jones as a surname until 1904 when they change to something other than Smith, Brown or Jones.
On their marriages they give John Smith as their father.
Right?
It would appear that John Smith & Mary Brown were co-habiting over the period of the births as he would have had to have given his consent for his name to be included.
For whatever reason Mary & Fred Jones are back together by 1890. There may have been some bad feeling on the part of Fred Jones towards the 2 boys & reaching the age of 21 the eldest has changed his name with the younger one following suit.
So the crucial time is where was Fred Jones from 1885-90.

[jacky_d]

Hi Jim i thoroughly understand how it all looks when written and in all honesty only for many many years of research and finally finding proof then i wouldn't believe or begin to understand any of it. The reason im not putting all the names is purely because most of my time and energy has been spent on the 2 boys( if you wish to see the full list then i will inbox you) and now its time to focus On my great great Grandfather Antonio Mazzone alias Marco/Marcho/Mazzo/ Born 22/05 between 1856 and 1857 however on hospital records his birth is down once as 22/05/1856  and 3 times 22/05/1857 his age at death would correspond with 1857 but again until I find his birth record its just another assumption as some records would put him down as being born 1859/60.
Census records say he was born in Naples and all DNA matches with Mazzone are either Senerchia or Canada and a few in the UK these matches are 3 cousins and 4th cousins.
As a final resort i took out a free trial on ancestry and went through every single criminal record voters list workhouse records from cardiff between 1883 and 1887 Nothing at all not even with any of his other names.
On his marriage certificate it says his fathers name is Kito however we know that the letter K is not used in the Italian alphabet (Yet another presumption) is his fathers name could have been Vito!
There is however a Antonio Marco lurking in the back ground 1863 prison records but have not pursued this as DNA has  now confirmed I am actually a mazzone and Not a Marco! ALthough i do have a couple DNA matches for Marco it is however very very distant.  Please feel free to ask as many questions as you wish.
As much as it may sound silly your questions really do help me look at it from other directions.
Thank you for your interest and responses
 

[familydar]

If he travelled around with a fair then possibly don't confine your researches to Wales.  FindMyPast has a criminal record from 1883 over in Huntingdon I think it was, may or may not be him (he was acquitted).  Also lots of possibles with the ice cream connection in Scotland.

Jane :-)

[jacky_d]

Thank you Jane I will take a look at that now and again you are right i now realise iv have been focusing on South Wales/cheshire/oswestry/Wrexham areas as these are the areas I know they were for sure. Thank you for your valued input.
Jacky