Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[River Tyne Lass]

Good point Jomot.  Although, workhouse record for Orselina indicates he was living at Turpin's Bank in July 1902.

Giovanni was recorded as a travelling musician at one point.  It is possible he may have died somewhere but have been unidentifiable when found.

I have a bloodline ancestor who was found dead in the River Tyne - albeit he was found the next day and an inquest was held.  I also have another ancestor - a  trainee pilot who was washed out to sea and never seen again during a storm in 1902.  There were plenty of witnesses in that case.
Perhaps Giovanni may have had an accident of some sort but there may have been no witnesses and he may have been unidentifiable when found.  Unfortunate but I suppose it could be a possibility.

I do hope one of these certificates might reveal something new which might help.  Even if not, hopefully one day another descendant who may know the answer may see this post and may contact Battista to let he or she know what happened. 

This once happened to me - a brick wall which was virtually impossible to solve was solved by another descendant (previously unknown to me) getting in touch and revealing all big time.  So keep casting out that net Battista.  You just never know this puzzle may well get solved this side of heaven.  Hopefully.

[River Tyne Lass]

This is just a post about something which a local studies member of staff said to me in conversation yesterday which might be something to consider.

In conversation, this staff member mentioned that if someone worked on a boat and died then the captain would register them at the next port they came to.

I wonder if Giovanni may have sought work on a boat on the Tyne sailing either from North Shields or Newcastle?  Perhaps he may have died on the boat and might be registered in a different country, for example Norway.  I would imagine at that time there would have been plenty of work in this area for anyone wishing to go to sea and various jobs available.

I don't know much about sea deaths concerning if there is a list somewhere of names.  Perhaps another RootsChatter may know.  I wonder if he did die at sea he may also have been buried at sea.

I saw a marriage record yesterday at a North Shields Church (1950s - in a volume) for someone whom I believe is a Grandson of Orselina.  Obviously, I won't post details for your records Battista as this person may still be alive.  However, I think it could well be possible that descendants of Giovanni may still be in this area.  (Although, I do not know this.). Another, descendant could well be the key to solve this puzzle for you - perhaps by word of mouth stories that have been passed down to them. 

As I think I have mentioned before, I once had a huge brick wall solved through an on-line appeal which was eventually spotted by another descendant.  And my brick wall was as seemingly as unsolvable as yours is - so don't give up hope.

[alpinecottage]

I've been following this thread without being able to add anything constructive but it occurs to me that on a ?marriage certificate mentioned earlier in the thread, Giovanni was recoded as deceased.  This implies that the family knew he had died, as opposed to him merely having gone missing or having died but been found by away from home and having been recorded as unknown.

[JenB]

Giovanni was recoded as deceased.  This implies that the family knew he had died, as opposed to him merely having gone missing or having died but been found by away from home and having been recorded as unknown.

d

I think I’m right in saying that if a person was missing for more than 7 years they could be presumed dead even if there was no positive proof 

[River Tyne Lass]

I was talking to someone on Saturday who told me of someone in their ancestry who declared their Father dead even though he wasn't.  This person was apparently underage and would have needed her Father's consent - which would not have been given.

I do suspect in Giovanni's case he was likely to be dead.  However, there is always the possibility that he may not have been.  As Jen says he might have just been presumed dead.  Or there could have been a family fall out due to abandonment and he may have become 'dead' in their eyes though still around somewhere.  He may have been in the run.  So many possibilities!  And no further on to solving this as yet!

[River Tyne Lass]

I am just passing some information told to me by someone else -

There is a will on Ancestry apparently for a Giovanni Battista 1931.  Died at the Italian Hospital in London.  Widow was named as Camilla. 

This may not be the Giovanni who is being searched for.  However, it might be worth looking at as bigamy did happen.  I wouldn't rule anything out without further investigation.

[Jomot]

Hi RTL

I'd already looked at that one and he's in London with wife Camilla in 1911, aged 40 & married 8 years, so presumably the Giovanni Battista who married Marta Camilla Brenta in 1903. 

I guess it's possible it could be the same person - the timescale certainly fits - but he'd need some excellent moisturiser to get away with claiming to be 40 when he would have really been 64 (but if it is him, I definitely need to know which brand )

[River Tyne Lass]

Hi Jomot,

As mad as it might seem I still wouldn't rule this one out without further investigation.

My own Dad (now deceased) would have been able to pass for in his forties when in his sixties and his sixties when in his eighties if he had wanted to - maybe some people just have good genes.  Perhaps Giovanni had great genes.

I have not seen the will myself - I have been told it is in Italian.  However, in absence of any other Giovanni I do think this one might be worth investigating.  Bigamy might be a possibility.

Wouldn't it be great if this mystery could get solved!

[barryd]

From the Free Search on Durham Records Online,

Cemetery Registers
Sunderland
1911
Elizabeth Ellen
Battista
abt 1909
39 Hedworth Street
 
Cemetery Registers
Sunderland
1912
Anthony
Battista
abt 1889

 
Marriages
Newcastle
1919
William Armstrong
Battista
abt 1896
90 Molineux Street
 
Cemetery Registers
Sunderland
1943
Ruth
Battista
abt 1943