Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[River Tyne Lass]

Just to clarify, yes, I am wondering if Giovanni may have used an alias too, and perhaps this is why he is proving so difficult to find.  I am just plucking at straws here, but yes, I am wondering if Giovanni might be W.Brabant.

Not the William Brabant who was married to a 'Charlotte' but another one perhaps who married in 1904 to a Margaret or a Mary.  Unfortunately, 'Marriage Locator' does not pin point an exact venue for the 1904 marriage:

  http://www.marriage-locator.co.uk/cgi-bin/ML_search.cgi?year=1904&qtr=2&vol=10b&page=213&search=search

It was also 1904 when Elizabeth was taken out by a W.Brabant.  Of course, this person may not have been Giovanni.  However, I don't think it would have been out of the question for him to have used an alias for whatever reason.

Possible theories ... Perhaps Giovanni wanted to seem to disappear to avoid being hounded for contributions for his children's support in the workhouse.  I know from reading the 'minutes' volumes that relatives could be tracked and made to contribute if they could be found.  Or perhaps he wanted to be free of Anastasia and his marital responsibilities for her.  Also, it might have been a lot simpler back then to commit bigamy rather than divorce if Giovanni had fallen in love with someone else.  Who knows what might have been going on.  In Anastasia's death notice she is only noted as the wife of Michael Whelan and not Giovanni.  It could just be that someone wanted to blot their step-father out - but it also could be that there might be something else behind this.

It could have been a slip of the pen that 'Father William a tailor' was written in Elizabeth's entry when she returned to the workhouse or perhaps this referred to baby John's Father?  It is a bit ambiguous.  The phrase in the entry does have a ring of present tense about it so perhaps Giovanni might still have been alive in 1912?  Perhaps as a William.  Perhaps as William Brabant.  A Wiiliam Brabant of around Giovanni's age dies in Newcastle in 1927.

As there are hundreds of posts on this thread it certainly is easy to lose track of everything. 

However, I can't help wondering if there might be clues in amongst it all that we might be missing.  It does seem strange how Giovanni seems to vanish into thin air.  Also puzzling is how daughter Elizabeth becomes 'Moralee'.

Oh well, hopefully more might come to light as things go on.

By the way, that is wonderful that you now have a photo of Georgina, Sophie.  It is always so thrilling when a photo of an ancestor turns up!!   

[JenB]

Not the William Brabant who was married to a 'Charlotte' but another one perhaps who married in 1904 to a Margaret or a Mary. 

The other groom on the page was Selby Davidson, who in 1911 was married to Margaret.
So William Brabant must have married Mary Ann McCann.

[River Tyne Lass]

Thanks Jen for this.  I have been able to have a quick look at the next census and can’t see William and Mary Ann Brabant.  I have been able to check Selby who presumably married in same venue.  An online family tree does not pin point the venue but Selby seems to have lived in the Westgate area so where he and William married may have been around that area.  A Mary A Brabant marries a George E Gash or Cash in 1917 in Carlisle.  Might she be William’s 'widow' either through death or discardment, I wonder?
Even if it all turns out that William Brabant might have no connection to Giovanni, I do think it is now worth serious consideration that Giovanni may have had an alias.  Although, we don’t have any strong links or leads as yet, I am still hopeful something might turn up.  Perhaps if more could be found out about mysterious daughter Elizabeth this might lead to something.  If all fails, there is still hope that she may turn up on the 1921 census with more clues.  Her baby John’s birth does not appear to have been registered and he seemingly disappears too after leaving the workhouse.

By the way, I wonder if Elizabeth's name as 'Moralee' might have been a spelling mistake on the Great War record of brother Vincent alias Frank Spence/Spencer? 

If it turns out Giovanni did have an alias, I wonder if this might have been something Italian sounding as since he came to this country as an adult perhaps he retained his Italian accent so he wouldn’t have been able to pretend to be a local.  Perhaps, he might have stuck to a familiar occupation such as music, ice cream making or I think most likely, tailoring.  Any such alias would likely also be around the same age as Giovanni.
Solving the original purpose of this thread is certainly proving to be challenging – but I am still optimistic that it still might be done.   

[Love&Leaves]

I am optimistic too RTL! Trying to look back though everything to see if anything makes more sense on second look...

I might try again on the Bolton Union minutes for Elizabeth...

Another thing I am following up.... Giovanni's second wife, Anastasia Whelan/nee Finley and her children... can't find any of them on the 1911 census    Anastasia's daughter Mary Alice was godmother to a few of the younger of Giovanni's children... wonder why she didn't take on her responsibility in the event of them being orphaned 

Also Georgina Battista's descendants... still waiting on a response from my DNA contact and hoping that some light might be shed on Giovanni or indeed Vincent / Frank Spence - Georgina was next of kin on his service record and was the one who completed the form that noted Elizabeth as E A Moralee.

[JenB]

Also, Giovanni's  Elizabeth and Antonio appear to have been baptised twice.  In volumes at North Shields library they are both recorded as having been baptised at St Peter North Shields.

Elizabeth on 17 October 1886 parents John & Elizabeth Ellen.

RTL, can you point me to Elizabeth’s other baptism, please? I can’t seem to find it on this thread (it must be there somewhere though  )

[River Tyne Lass]

Apologies, no I don't think I can spot a previous baptism for Elizabeth either.  It is such a long thread but I thought I had found another for her in the past but perhaps there is only the one at St Peters.

On page 11 post 96 Antonio seems to have had another baptism at St Cuthbert RC Church in addition to the St Peter one I came across recently in a volume at the library.

[Love&Leaves]

Currently I know that Antonio and William Armstrong that were baptised twice.... in fact, William Armstrong was christened in Christ Church, Tynemouth at birth and then baptised at St Mary's aged 5!

[Love&Leaves]

Also received the death certificate for the Thomas George Matthews who may or may not be James Battista... no definitive info I'm afraid 

Informant was his nephew... not a name I have heard of before... going to see if I can find any marriages of that name with the children of Lily and 'Thomas'.

Occupation noted as a 'Storekeeper (Retired) - if it is him, perhaps he settled down eventually 

[River Tyne Lass]

That was quick, Sophie!  What a coincidence that would be for those names and given birth date if it isn't James Battista.  Hopefully, you will find  something more to support the theory that he was James. 

If this is him, as a storekeeper, it does sound like he might have settled down in life.   

I don't know what part of Durham he may have died in.  Possibly he might have had an Evening Chronicle death notice if it wasn't too far from Newcastle.  If you think it might help I could check to see if there might have been an EC death notice if you can post date of death.  A death notice might reveal if he was the husband or Widower of Lily, which might clinch things.  (Of course, I would not post concerning any adult children's names who may still be alive.) I suppose there might also be the possibility that he might have left Lily/married someone else.