Illegal immigrant 1838 Ann Collins

[Andcarred]

Hi All,

My 2xgreat grandmother Ann Collins came to Oz as an unrecorded person on the convict ship Margaret(1) with her mother Mary Collins (7 years for stealing butter).  .  I am told the Irish were a lot more forgiving than the English when it came to closing their eyes to the children of women convicts who wished to stay with their mothers.  In this case Mary was tried in Dublin and then sent to Cork jail where she was kept until it was time to board the ship.   I can only assume that daughter Ann, aged around 10-12 years, accompanied her mother from Dublin to Cork and then stayed in the jail with her before boarding the ship.  Does this scenario sound likely?  Sounds like a lot of "looking the other way" to me.   

Annie

[Dundee]

I am quite sure there was no so such thing as an illegal immigrant in 1838.  Many children were transported along with their parents as they would otherwise have had to be supported by the parish.

Debra 

[Dundee]

Onboard the Margaret which arrived in May 1837 were four cabin passengers, 35 free settlers, and 151 female prisoners with 23 children.

Debra 

[majm]

I agree with Dundee,  no such thing as illegal immigrant in NSW admin in the 1830s.   I see that Mary was 46 years old, a married woman with six children,  five males, one female.



JM

[Andcarred]

Hi Dundee and JM,

The "illegal immigrant" label was something of a joke, obviously a poor one if nobody got it.   I was just wondering how it all came about.   There is no permission given that I can find and Ann is not on the passenger list.   There are several other children who accompanied their mothers who are likewise not on the passenger list.  Therefore the exact numbers given to the Colonial Secretary about the number of passengers (or cargo as the convicts were considered to be, hence the name Indent and not passenger list) on the ship was incorrect. 

This situation was addressed some years later by the Colonial Secretary writing to Ireland saying he had become aware that there were unlisted children on the ship and asking for details of their names and ages.   Every child seems to have been given the birth date of 25 December in whatever was the closest year to their age.   Rafferty's rules really did seem to apply.

Andcarred

[majm]

   Lack of documentation on ships' manifests was not just for those children who 'came free' accompanying Mum under a sentence 'beyond the seas'. 

Even if a family was coming of their own accord, it seems to me that those children in steerage were often not well documented by name, even into early 20th century.   There was no real need for the children to be named individually on those voyages, and of course, very little need for individuals to have a portfolio of ID style documents anyway .... During the voyage the numbers were needed for catering etc, and of course any list even if it only mentioned Mr & Mrs SURNAME and x children would  be 'too much info' if the steward in charge of allocating mess etc was not literate.    The Convict Indents of course are prison records, and so there's more chance of details on female convict records than on any other 'came free' female from first settlement through to around WWI.   

I think you have achieved great success in following up on the Col Sec correspondence.   PS cannot be Rafferty's rules if there's consistency in birthdays, afterall Murphy's Law says that Rafferty was an optimist.   

JM

   

[Westward]

Hi Dundee and JM,

The "illegal immigrant" label was something of a joke, obviously a poor one if nobody got it.
...... 

This situation was addressed some years later by the Colonial Secretary writing to Ireland saying he had become aware that there were unlisted children on the ship and asking for details of their names and ages.   Every child seems to have been given the birth date of 25 December in whatever was the closest year to their age.   Rafferty's rules really did seem to apply.

Andcarred

It read well    I had a distant ancestor who was convicted at the old Bailey. She came on board with two children. They were named on the shipping list - perhaps the English were more particular than the Irish. They had a slightly french sounding surname & a few years ago I found an early 20th century descendant proclaiming he came from French Aristocracy. Lots of inventive ways to lose the convict ancestry in my family 

Giving the children the same birth date sounds rather like how horses are treated - somewhat sad that this was considered a valid option.

[ChuckyB]

Hi All,

My 2xgreat grandmother Ann Collins came to Oz as an unrecorded person on the convict ship Margaret(1) with her mother Mary Collins (7 years for stealing butter).  .  I am told the Irish were a lot more forgiving than the English when it came to closing their eyes to the children of women convicts who wished to stay with their mothers.  In this case Mary was tried in Dublin and then sent to Cork jail where she was kept until it was time to board the ship.   I can only assume that daughter Ann, aged around 10-12 years, accompanied her mother from Dublin to Cork and then stayed in the jail with her before boarding the ship.  Does this scenario sound likely?  Sounds like a lot of "looking the other way" to me.   

Annie

Hi Annie,
I am trying to track down the parents (and ancestors) of Sarah, Thomas and James Howell (born 1844, 1846 and 1849 in Maitland, NSW, Australia). Their mother was Ann Collins.  Do you know if this is the same Collins that you were asking about?
Thanks,
Charles

[majm]

Hi there,

Welcome to RootsChat

  

Familysearch online index has the following info and the cards on which the info is drawn. 

Samuel HOWELL, aged 95 years, died 6 August 1895 was buried in the Roman Catholic Cemetery, Merriwa.  He was born Senoaks, England and married Ann COLLINS at Paterson at 43 years of age.  Particulars from the Death Register.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9WY-5KQ5?i=20&cc=2058669   
Image 21 of 50.

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=394279.0
[/quote]

Hi,
I am trying to track down the parents (and ancestors) of Sarah, Thomas and James Howell (born 1844, 1846 and 1849 in Maitland, NSW, Australia). Their father was Samuel Howell who died on 6 Aug 1895.  Do you know if this is the same Samuel Howell that you were asking about?
Thanks,
Charles
[/quote]


JM