THOMAS READ AND WIFE ELIZABETH ? BETHNAL GREEN

[jonwarrn]

Ah, that explains it then.
I think I must have overdosed on Reads!

[cuffie81]

Agree, it would be good to get some feedback, with Elizabeth Reed appearing above Thomas in 1841 do you think that a possible relationship exists with the SANDERS ?
Keyboard86

As we don't have much info on Elizabeth and Jane Sanders this is very speculative but if it's right they don't look to be related.

1851 Hackney
Ref HO107; Piece 1505; Folio 527; Page 27;
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG6R-XXG

1861 Mile End Old Town
Ref RG09; Piece 292; Folio 108; Page 9;
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2ML-LQX6

1871 West Ham
Ref RG10; Piece 1629; Folio 73; Page 23;
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFFV-22F

1881 West Ham
Ref RG11; Piece 1707; Folio 118; Page 44;
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27C-RB92


Possible GRO death registrations:
1853 Q2 Death - Elizabeth Sanders; age 73 (born c1780); Shoreditch; 01c; 159
1856 Q1 Death - Elizabeth Sanders; age 77 (born c1779); Poplar; 01c; 390
1860 Q3 Death - Elizabeth Sanders; age 75 (born c1785); Hackney; 01b; 174
1890 Q3 Death - Jane Sanders; age 79 (born c1811); West Ham; 04a; 91

[cuffie81]

It appears that Thomas Read and Zephaniah Simpson (father-in-law to Thomas' sister Elizabeth Ann) were in business together...

I've made a mistake here (again). Zephaniah Simpson was the brother of Thomas Simpson and not his father. So Thomas Read was in business with the Simpson brothers.

A few references to back it up...

Old Bailey Proceedings:
CAROLINE ALLEN, MARY ANN SMITH, CATHERINE GALE, Theft > simple larceny, 16th June 1845.
Theft of goods from  Thomas and Zephaniah Simpson. Thomas Simpson is witness and states he's in partnership with his brother.
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def3-1248-18450616&div=t18450616-1248


GRO BMD references:

1848 Q4 Marriage - Zephaniah Simpson & Adeline Simpson; Greenwich; 05; 338
1850 Q4 Birth - Zephaniah Simpson (mmn: Simpson); Clerkenwell; 03; 89
1859 Q1 Death - Zephaniah Simpson; age 51 (born c1808); Clerkenwell; 01b; 372
1873 Q1 Death - Adeline Simpson; age 55 (born c1818); Tynemouth; 10b; 124


Marriage:

married: 25 Nov 1848; St Nicholas, Deptford, Greenwich;
groom: Zephaniah Simpson; fa; bach; linen draper; St Andrew, Holborn
bride: Adeline Simpson; fa; spin; -; St Nicholas, Deptford
grooms father: Zephaniah Simpson; captain of a ship
brides father: Thomas Simpson; master mariner
witnesses: William Parker?, Mary Darvill?

Note that the father of the groom is also Zephaniah, a 'captain of a ship', which loosely matches that of Thomas Simpson's marriage record, his father recorded as Zephaniah, a seaman.


1851 Census - Wharton Street, Clerkenwell
Ref HO107; Piece 1517; Folio 20; Page 33;
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG1M-7DM

1861 Census - Lloyd Street, Clerkenwell
Ref RG09; Piece 192; Folio 10; Page 13;
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2M2-TJRM

1871 Census - Lloyd Street, Clerkenwell
Ref RG10; Piece 384; Folio 36; Page 17;
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBDL-QLQ


This probably isn't of great interest to Lesley but I thought it best to correct my mistake in case anyone else stumbles across this thread in future.

[cuffie81]

Birth registration of Emily Frances Read, which confirms her father as Thomas Read. It looks as if Thomas and Emily's mother, Elizabeth Caroline Heyn (formerly Newmann), weren't married.

name: Emily Frances Read
born: 11 Aug 1838; no 7 Paradise Row
father: Thomas Read, linen draper
mother: Elizabeth Caroline Heyn, formerly Newmann?
informant: E C Heyn; the mother; no 7 Paradise Row
registered: 14? Nov 1838
https://postimg.org/image/b29rakx4p/


Possible baptism, re-marriage, death & burial of Emily's mother:

Baptism:
name: Elizabeth Caroline Newman
baptised: 19 Aug 1812; St George in the East, Stepney
father: John
mother: Mary Ann
occupation: Mat.
abode: Philip Street
born: 22 Jul 1812
ref: FHL Film Number: 578791, 578792

Marriage:
married: 26 Oct 1844; St Botolph, Aldersgate, City of London; lic
groom: James Arrowsmith; fa; bach; gentleman?; Westham? Essex?
bride: Elizabeth Caroline Heyn; fa; wid; -; Falcon Street
grooms father: Robert Arrowsmith; farmer
brides father: John Godlip? Newmann; merchant
witnesses: Eliza Reynold, Thomas James;
ref: page 199, no 397

I couldn't find Elizabeth's first marriage.

Burial:
name: Elizabeth Caroline Arrowsmith
buried: 07 Mar 1850; Tower Hamlets Cemetery
age: 37 years
abode: 18 Upton Place, West Ham

Burial:
name: James Arrowsmith
buried: 06 Apr 1852; Tower Hamlets Cemetery
age: 49 years
abode: Upton Place, West Ham

Burial register:
name: Elizabeth C Arrowsmith
grvae no: 1176
place: Tower Hamlets Cemetery
notes:
   Catacomb for two coffins under consecrated chapel
   Square No
   1850 February 28th
   £19.00
   James Arrowsmith
   Upton Place West Ham
   Gentleman


Censuses:

1841 - Upton Place, West Ham
James Arrowsmith, widower.
Ref HO107; Piece 323; Book 10; Folio 5; Page 5;
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQ2F-1FZ

1851 - Upton Place, West Ham
James Arrowsmith, widower.
Ref HO107; Piece 1768; Folio 439; Page 11;
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGVN-3WS


Newspaper references:

Morning Post
02 April 1852
Deaths
At his residence, Upton-place, on the 28th ult., in the forty-ninth year of his age, James Arrowsmith, Esq, deepley lamented, the last of the family of the late Robert Arrowsmith, Esq., of West Ham, Essex.

John Bull
26 January 1840
Died
In his 83rd year, Mr Robert Arrowsmith, of West Ham, Essex.


GRO BMD references:
1838 Q4 Birth - Emily Frances Read Read (mmn: Newmann); Bethnal Green; 02; 36
1844 Q4 Marriage - James Arrowsmith & Elizabeth Caroline Heyn; East London; 2; 197
1850 Q1 Death - Elizabeth Caroline Arrowsmith; age 37 (born c1813); West Ham; 12; 219
1852 Q1 Death - James Arrowsmith; age 49 (born c1803); West Ham; 04a; 12


Edits:
[1] Added burial details

[lahpun]

To all the wonderful people in Rootschat who are helping me....I apologise for not being here to chat but I have been down with Bronchitis and also have issues with cataracts so finding it hard to read the board.  Please bear with me and I will check out the entries and get back to you with comments.
I just saw something about the Simpson line I think from Cuffie and was wondering about that line.  I did contact the Legassick family and the lady replied to me and her name was Simpson (nee Legassick) and it appears that the Legassick line is not related BUT I am now wondering if this lady is related to the Elizabeth Ann Read of Wilks street, whose father was Thomas Read and mother Elizabeth.  If someone has time to check out this Simpson line further we may have something.  I guess though that it does not bring us back to Thomas and Elizabeth.  We may have to let them go. Lesley.

[cuffie81]

Hi Lesley, I hope you're feeling better.

There are an awful lot of records and leads everyone's dug up for the family so I'll post a summary below but if you need any help going through them just let us know.

As Jon said in an earlier post, there a lot of connections of the family to itself but little to connect to family to other Reads. Looking for leads of Thomas Read (father) there are a number of possible baptisms, some with interesting connections, but being a common name it's difficult to say with any certainty. Let me know if you want more details.

As for possible connections of the researcher (named Legassick) to Elizabeth Ann Read who married Thomas Simpson, I'd have my doubts that there's any connection. The general consensus was that the family at Wilks Street is the same family at Wilmot Street and that the parents Thomas and Elizabeth are unlikely to be the couple named Thomas Read and Elizabeth Wilks Legassick who married 1822, as the marriage is outside of the area that your Thomas and Elizabeth lived and was some years after the birth of their 1st child (Thomas c1813).


Thomas Read & Elizabeth - family summary
Thomas:
born: c1788 Bethnal Green
died: 1873 Edmonton
occupations: weaver, silk weaver, silk manufacturer

Elizabeth:
born: c1791 St Lukes, Middlesex
died: 1876 Edmonton

censuses:
1841 Wilmot Street, Bethnal Green
1851 Wilmot Street, Bethnal Green
1861 Holford Square, Clerkenwell
1861 Church Road, Edmonton
1871 Church Road, Edmonton

addresses:
1814 - 1820 Wilks Street, Spitalfields
1822 - 1859 Wilmot Street, Bethnal Green
1861 - 1871 Church Road, Edmonton

children:

Thomas	1813 - 1884	marr: 1846 Charlotte Allen (late Wetherell)	1808? - 1885
Elizabeth Ann	1814 - 1861	marr: 1842 Thomas Simpson	1812 - 1867
John	1817 - 1871	marr: 1840 Eliza Jane West	1817 - 1877
George	1820 - 1877?	marr: 1844 Harriet Eleanor Hulbert	1821 - 1892?
Ann	1822 - 1867?
James William	1824 - 1861+
Jane	1827 - 1851+
Charles	1829 - ?
Benjamin	1833 - 1900?	marr: 1860 Emma Pugh
Alfred	1835 - 1871+

notes:
Children Thomas, Elizabeth Ann, John and George baptised at Christ Church, Spitalfields.
Children Ann, James William, Jane, Charles, Benjamin and Alfred baptised at St Matthew, Bethnal Green.
Sons Thomas, John, Benjamin and Alfred were all linen drapers.
Son Thomas baptised 1814 but likely born 1812/1813, based on censuses, death record and baptism of sister same year.
Son Thomas was in business with brothers Thomas and Zephaniah Simpson, linen drapers.
Son Thomas named brother Benjamin in his will.
Son Thomas had a daughter, Emily Frances, with Elizabeth Caroline Heyn (nee Newmann).
Charlotte, wife of Thomas (son), named Zephaniah Simpson in her will, not known which Zephaniah.
Son John was also a bootmaker.
Son George was a silk weaver and lighterman.
Daughter Ann died in Grove Hall Asylum, Bow, and her father Thomas was named in her probate record.
Son James was a silk weaver and warehouseman.
Son James last seen on 1861 census at Wilmot Street, single.
Daughter Jane last seen on 1851 census with parents.
Son Charles last seen in England on 1841 census with parents but known to have emigrated to Australia.
Son Benjamin may have been married multiple times; wife's name, age and birth place changes throughout censuses.
Son Alfred last seen on 1871 census, single.


Obviously there's quite a bit of speculation so more detailed research should be done to be sure we haven't inadvertently connected wrong people to the family but it all seems OK.


Edits:
- Corrected birth year of Elizabeth (mother)

[lahpun]

]b] Thank you all for your input to this elusive family.  Most especially, Cuffie81 who has summarised the whole thing for me.  [/size]  Thank you so much.  Please excuse any errors you find as it is hard to see.   So, if Thomas (father) was born circa 1788 and Elizabeth ?? (mother) was born 1791 - Thomas would have been 25 thereabouts  and Elizabeth 22 years when Thomas was born in 1813.  They could have been married anytime around 1810 -1813.  Thomas would have been around 22 and Elizabeth 19 years.   I guess Elizabeth's maiden name will remain unknown.   At some time in the future I will have to consider looking at purchasing Thomas' birth if that is possible seeing as how it is before registration started.  Any comments regarding the birth record back then would be appreciated.
I just thought I would add to the summary that Cuffie provided, my late husband's great grandfather, Charles Read born 23 December 1829, spent his life from 15 years to 29 as a Mariner until he came to Sydney Australia where he married.   You may find this interesting that once married in Sydney he bought a store right in the middle of Sydney City in George Street.  This store as a Department store selling:
Carpets, Linoleum, Matting, Stair hessians, Leather Cloth; Lace curtains, Damask, Trimmings, bedding and upholstery.  So he more or less followed the family line but widened the content of his store.  Unfortunately, the story goes he gambled it all away. 

Cuffie I have copied your summary to pass onto anyone in this family who feels the need to find their roots.   Again, thank you all for your help.

Until I can see properly, I feel I must give the small screen a miss for awhile.    Thank you all very much.
Lesley


 

[cuffie81]

Civil registrations of births, marriages and deaths in England didn't start until 1837 and as Thomas and Elizabeth's last known child, Alfred, was born 1835 there's no birth certificate you could order to determine Elizabeth's maiden name.

The best option for determining Elizabeth's maiden name would be to try and trace all of the possible couples in the area named Thomas and Elizabeth Read, to try and eliminate couples. I had tried earlier on to do this but couldn't make much inroads.

When you're able to pick up your research again and need any help I'm sure they'll be someone here to help.


Quick note about your issues using your computer/device with your sight issues. I'm not sure if you're aware but there are various options to help nowadays, such as software options (eg high-contrast, screen scaling) and hardware (eg keyboards with large letters and high contrast). And if you're using a laptop, or even a tablet, these can be connected to an external monitor and there are plenty of large, good quality ones around at reasonable prices. If you want to chat about any of this feel free to send me a PM.

All the best.

[lahpun]

Dear cuffie I don’t know how to find PM,  can you advise please.
Lesley