Location of Torcoon, Canonbie

[Jeffrey]

Hi Monica,

Thanks again for your help and ideas.

I had thought about the children being with their grandmother and found on SP that Margaret's birth was registered by her grandmother Agnes so viewed the entry (then her surname was the only word I could not read on the page). SP were very helpful and looked at it for me and thought it was Agnes 'Hanna'. I thought it looked like that  too. So I have tried all combinations of that and different spellings to no avail. Agnes Bell's father's surname was Halliday. But again I have tried all sorts of combinations of that too.

Just a thought though, I have not tried anything to do with Agnes Hanna on the English Census - will try that. Will let you know if I strike lucky.

In the mean time any suggestions would be gratefully received. The more I try the more likely I would be to find them.

Judy

[Jeffrey]

Just tried the English Census for them.
No luck!
Judy

[MonicaL]

Judy

A quick look at the 1861 census for Dumfries (free searches on SP, haven't viewed them):

Using Ha* for surname:
Agnes Hanah age 60 Canonbie
Agnes Hannah x3 ages 48/55/57 in Dumfries
Agnes Hanley age 47 Kelton

Using Hal*y and adding more:
A search for an Agnes Halliday in Dumfries age 50-70 produced 4 entries:
Age 52 in Dumfries
Age 57 in Ruthwell
Age 70 in Dunscore
Age 51 in Hutton and Corrie

The problem is I cannot see an Agnes/Margaret child in their age groups for the same places to match the Agnes's above (life is never easy is it!)

Monica

[Jeffrey]

Hi Monica,

Bingo!!!! Your Agnes Hannah aged 60 in Canonbie, I have just looked up onSP. How could I have missed that one - I have spent so many credits looking at others. Just shows you get some one else looking at it in a different way.

I know it is her as the enumerator has written Bell then crossed it out and written Hanah, and the place of birth is right. She is with her husband who is a farm labourer and the next farm to them is Torcoon.

Then it gets even better her grand daughter Agnes is with her - aged 5. Her surname is down as "Armstrong".  Which just confirms my suspicions that her father was an Armstrong. As Agnes put Armstrong down on her children's birth certificates then said it was Jackson later on towards the end of her life.

I have been looking for this for about 2 years. Thank you very much!!!

Judy

[MonicaL]

Hi Judy

That's brilliant! You now have at least SIX Armstrong sons in the farm next door as potential fathers!!!

Regards.

Monica

[Jeffrey]

Hi Monica,
I am really pleased about the find. Thank you.

Yes where one problem is solved it just makes another. Which one of the Armstrongs will it be?

I shall see about the Kirk Sessions in the Canonbie area and see if they were admonished for having children without being married. I hope they were then I will find the father.

Thanks for all the corresponding if you hadn't kept at this I would not have found them.

Best Wishes,
Judy

[Jeffrey]

Hi Monica,

Just been looking at the names of Agnes's Sons. The oldest is called Robert. I wonder if that was the one of the six male Armstrongs from Torcoon that was her father and she named her first son after him.
Certainly the ages are right as Robert Armstrong from Torcoon was about the same age as her mother. Wonder if he died as he isn't there in 1861. Will have to look further.
But another thought - this Robert Armstrong also had a father Robert. But I do not think him as likely as a father as he was quite a bit older, 69 in 1855 when Agnes was born.

No proof but getting there!

Judy

[MonicaL]

Judy

Remember they may have used the Scottish naming order: First son named after father's father, first daughter after mother's mother etc. You know who Agnes married and I assume that you have her wedding cert showing her husband's parents. If father in law is not called Robert, but their children's names all seem to follow overall this naming pattern, it does give room for thought! How to prove it I wonder. I think you're idea of checking the Kirk Sessions is good, assuming they were church people. The Dumgal site Dumfries kirk session entries don't seem to have anything but I'm not sure how complete these are (I've checked surnames Hanah/Jackson/Bell but they all seem to stop around 1810-30 and we're looking at 1855).

There's still the issue of where Charters was in 1851. Given her age you would think she would have been local to Torcoon. I wonder if her name was mistranscribed. What was Agnes Bell/Hanah's husband's name? The problem with searching on Scotland's people is that you cannot search by first name only (as with the Dumgal site). Have you found Agnes on the 1851 census?

Regards.

Monica

PS: I do agree it was probably son rather than father!!!

[MonicaL]

Judy

 Not sure if you've got this. From freecen, this looks like Charters in 1841:
       
Margaret Holliday age 71, a Pauper, born in Dumfries-shire
Charters Jackson, age 7, born Dumfries-shire    

Living in Crossdykes, Hutton and Corrie, Dum.

I assume this is Charters maternal grandmother (and explains the name of Charters's second daughter).

Monica