Another photo to date please!

[Ninatoo]

Hi all!

I have just received this wonderful photo from my dad.  It is in remarkable condition as it is behind an excellent frame and has been put away for many years.

Can someone please estimate when this photo might be taken?

Thanks in advance,

Nina

[PrueM]

Hi Nina,
Can you tell me if it is mounted onto a card and if so what the card looks like?  Or perhaps scan it in full and post again?  It would be helpful to know the colour of the card, any writing on it and also what's on the back, if anything.
As the lady is older, the clothing may not be a reliable dating source (she might not have been up with the latest fashions!) but the photo and card style may give us good clues.
Cheers
Prue

[Ninatoo]

Hiya Prue,

I knew you would take a look! 

Well, I have had the photo in my possession for only a few hours, but I will tell you that it looks like it may have been a reprint, even though it is on card.  I could be wrong as I know nothing about old photos.   There are definite retouching marks around the eyes, hands and collar.  My dad took it out of the frame for a little bit to see if we could find a photographer's name, but to no avail.  It looks to me like it has been mounted onto the card.  The photographic paper itself looks very thin, as thin as an ordinary sheet of paper.

The photo is very large, and as such I can't get her feet in my scanner.  The dress reaches the floor, and may have a black border at the bottom, but it also may have been added later.  It is mounted in a glass frame with clips at the side, and is framed by mirror, if you see what I mean.  The corners of the frame are cut on the diagonal.  I think the framing may have been done around the 1940's.

Colour of the card is a kind of pale yellowish hue.

Any ideas?

Nina

[PrueM]

Hi Nina,
Oops, sounds like I'm  getting a reputation 
I love these puzzles, it's good practise for me as I need to identify photos every day in my job (conservator) so the more I look at the more knowledge I build up.

My first thoughts based on what you've told me, and the picture:

You mention you though it might be a reprint; I think it's very likely that this was an enlargement done from a glass negative.  This would account for the retouching you can see around her face etc...it was very common to do the "tarting up" on the negative itself by scraping or painting over the offending bits.  Enlargements were difficult before the invention of bromide emulsions in the late 1880s and even then it took a while for them to become widely used.  So that is going to help us narrow down the date a bit.

Thin paper mounted to card suggests it is albumen paper - this was used from the 1850s through to about 1890.  It was still used after that, but not very commonly.

In summary, my present thoughts are that the photo (at least this print of it) dates from between the late 1880s and the mid 1890s. (I reserve the right to completely change my mind!!)

I haven't been able to date the clothes yet but I'm working on it. 

Prue

[Ninatoo]

Wow, thank you for your efforts so far Prue!  I did look at some of the links on the Photograph restoration page, and was looking in particular for a similar sleeve on the dress, as the one in the photo has a little 'kerchief detail at the top.  The closest on there was about 1880's.

My dad is going to get a shock.  He was always told this woman was Granny Granelli.  He naturally thought it was his OWN granny, but she was too young, obviously.  However, even his great grandmother was born in the 1850's and this woman seems older than 40-ish.  However I am aware that life in those days wasn't good for the complexion!

There is a good chance that this photo was taken in Italy.  We were so hoping for a photographer's mark because it may have given us the family's Italian town.  Oh well!

I looked at the photo out of the frame again, and the paper IS stuck onto thickish card, and I would say the photographic paper is even thinner than standard paper of today!

I love this stuff too Prue!

I have a sister-in-law who is a conservator, but I like this way of finding out.  More fun, and besides I don't get to see the SIL much these days.

Thanks again, and let me know what else you can come up with!

Nina

[percy]

Nina,

I agree with Prue.  Most likely 1885/1895.   Personally I incline to the latter.

Certainly looks like an Italian background --- and typical black costume.

There will be significance in what she is holding in her hand.   Can you give any detail on what it is and what is on it ?

Percy.

[Ninatoo]

Hi Percy,

I think it is just a handkerchief, though even in the original it is hard to tell.  Her hand has been retouched you see, so the detail is altered a little.

Nina

[PrueM]

I don't know Nina, I think she's holding a little card or something like that.  Probably impossible to tell now, though. 

[Ninatoo]

You're right Prue, it does look a little stiff to be a hanky.  But I wonder why she would be holding a card?