Trying to break down a brick wall with Joseph France

[Nikki Lund]

Hi
I have been looking to find some more information regarding Joseph France and his earlier life.  I have found his 1851, 1861, 1871 and 1881 census and have his birth, marriage and death info. The brick wall I'm hitting is finding out about his pre married life ie parents and siblings etc.  I cannot find a 1841 census that fits him.
Here is the info I do know -
He was born on 10th Feb 1819 in Manchester.  In April 1843 he married Elizabeth Preston and was a pattern card maker. He was married in Manchester Cathedral and his father is listed as Richard France who was a joiner. He was living in Cross St,  Chortlon Upon Medlock in this period.  In 1851 I believe he is living in Chester St, Hulme with his wife Elizabeth, daughter Maria and son Thomas and he is a warehouseman?.  In 1861 he is living in Chester St (different number) with wife Elizabeth, son Thomas and daughter Elizabeth and he is a Pawnbroker. In 1871 he is a convict in Millbank Prison (for laundering stolen goods) and still listed as a Pawnbroker.  In 1881 he is back living with Elizabeth (his wife), along with son Thomas, and daughters Alice and Maria and is listed as a Broker.  He died on 28th Oct 1886 and is buried in Southern Cemetery, Manchester.
It's really frustrating me that I cant seem to find his family prior to his marriage. I have looked on Ancestry and various other sites but am drawing a blank. I have also tried to find Richard France but getting nowhere.
 Would love some insight or ideas on where to go next with this.
Many thanks in advance
Nikki

[Mabel Bagshawe]

Not sure if its him, but on the 1841 census there's a Jos^h France in Back Brook St [Chorlton Upon Medlicot subdistrict] aged 20, warehouseman, with a 12 yr old called William Thornhill

[Nikki Lund]

Hmm - it would fit with his age and area and if it shows him born in Manchester there would be another link but I can't place the name William Thornhill and it still doesn't help with father Richard.  Many thanks for looking Mabel - it could well be him but I've no idea 

[rosie99]

Where did you find his birth date 

[Mabel Bagshawe]

The 1881 entry is confusing - where has Alice come from and Maria is 20 years too young to be his daughter from previous censuses. She married a Thomas Prescott in 1868.

[marysco]

Nicky is it possible that he could be Scottish?  I have France ancestry here in the Scottish Borders. I will look for a Joseph when I have time which unfortunately won't be this week! In the meantime you could try Scotland's People?

[Nikki Lund]

Hi Rosie99 - his birth date was taken from his medical record attached to his Millbank prison record of all places 
Mabel - I'm quite confused by the entries for Maria as well - its perfectly possible that I have the 1851 census wrong (I'm quite confident with all the others). I'm guessing that maybe Alice was visiting elsewhere on the previous census - hence her absence from it.  I cant make out Thomas DOB on the 1851 census either 
Marysco - I'm fairly certain that Joseph was from Manchester according to all his censuses.

[Mabel Bagshawe]

but if you use the GRO index there is no Alice France mmn Preston, hence my concern

The children of the Joseph France - Elizabeth Preston marriage are:

Thomas: Q1 1844, Chorlton

Maria: Q3 1848, Chorlton

Elizabeth: Q3 1855, Chorlton

Thomas is on 1851, but his age is not very distinct.

I'm wondering if Joseph has another Elizabeth, and this Alice and Maria are her daughters. She's around the same age but says b Manchester. and Elizabeth Preston France tends to say born Blackburn. when the latter dies, her address is 32 Chester St (definitely her - administration to daughter Maria Prescott), but in 1881 Joseph is in Mount St.

[Mabel Bagshawe]

Scrap that last bit - think I've worked it out. Maria and Alice are Thomas' daughters. he marries a Mary Ann Carter in 1862, and there's a Maria France mmn Carter b Chorlton in 1866 and Thomas and Mary Ann of Chester St baptise Alice Hales France in 1862