Trying to break down a brick wall with Joseph France

[Nikki Lund]

Yes - on my tree Thomas France (my 2nd great grandfather - and Josephs son) did marry Mary Ann Carter in 1862 and I have them down as having 2 children Alice b1862 and Maria b1867. Mary Ann died in 1871 and he then married Sarah Ellen Timperley (my 2nd great grandmother) in 1882 and they had 7 children.

[Nikki Lund]

Thanks Mabel - you've helped me make a bit more sense of the 1881 census now - I had Maria and Alice down as Josephs children as well as Thomas's children not realising the birth dates were duplicate  . Doh! -silly me  Now just need to work out this pesky Josephs life - he is a puzzle at the moment.

[Mabel Bagshawe]

Mary ann died later than 1871, as they had more children than you think

Rachel France baptised    7 Aug 1864    
Joseph France baptised    19 Feb 1869    
Joseph France baptised 28 May 1875    
Thomas France baptised    2 Feb 1877

the GRO register confirms these as mmn Carter.

There's a death of a Mary Ann aged 31 in Chorlton in 1877

[Nikki Lund]

Wow that's an amazing find - I'll add these names to my tree and see what I can find.  Thank you   

[Jomot]

Not sure if its him, but on the 1841 census there's a Jos^h France in Back Brook St [Chorlton Upon Medlicot subdistrict] aged 20, warehouseman, with a 12 yr old called William Thornhill

This could be the William Thornhill baptised Manchester 23 Jun 1830, s/o William & Hannah Thornton Thornhill, a Cotton Spinner of Chorlton Row

On 19 May 1821 William Thornton Thornhill, Cotton Spinner & Bachelor married Anna France, Spinster at Manchester. Both signed X.

The only other child I can find for them is Mary in 1832, who I think is the Mary aged 3^1/2 buried at Chorlton in February 1836. 

I cannot find William or Hannah in 1841.  There was another couple of the same name having children around the same time, although that William is a Stay Maker & married Hannah Stoby.   

Could Joseph therefore be the illegitimate son of Anna/Hannah France?

ADDED: Possibly worth enquiring here: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jzd/

[Jomot]

William & Hannah Thornhill may also have had a daughter, Jane, who married Thomas Tyson in June 1854 aged 21.  At marriage Jane was living at Eagle Street, Hulme, and named her father as William Thornhill, Spinner. 

I cant find a baptism for Jane though, nor can I find her on the 1841 census 

[Nikki Lund]

Hi Jomot Many thanks for your input into my mystery France family.  It's an interesting theory to consider that Joseph may have been illegitimate but if this was the case, would his father Richard France have been present at the wedding? and named on the marriage parish record?      I seem to have more questions than answers at the moment and maybe the only way forward would be to get Josephs birth certificate?  That would at least hopefully have the mother on there.

[Jomot]

Hi Jomot Many thanks for your input into my mystery France family.  It's an interesting theory to consider that Joseph may have been illegitimate but if this was the case, would his father Richard France have been present at the wedding? and named on the marriage parish record?      I seem to have more questions than answers at the moment and maybe the only way forward would be to get Josephs birth certificate?  That would at least hopefully have the mother on there.

People who were illegitimate frequently gave false details regarding their fathers when they married so as to appear 'respectable'.  Quite often however, there was some grain of truth in it, such as the correct forename and occupation of the biological father but not his surname (as this would reveal the illegitimacy).   

Also Richard France wasn't a witness, so what evidence do you have that he was present at the wedding?

You would not be able to obtain a birth certificate from 1819 as civil registration didn't begin until 1837, and I've looked for a baptism but cant find one.   However, if Joseph was illegitimate then you might find something naming both parents in the bastardy records I suggested.

[Nikki Lund]

Ahh - thanks Jomot  I didn't consider that the details given by Joseph on his wedding day may have been false ones. I'm learning as I go here    You are correct that Richard was not a witness, but Giles Preston was - the brides father. The other witness was an Ann Logan who is someone else I haven't placed yet.  I will have another look at the link you kindly posted but not sure how to navigate it?  What am I looking for here?  Sorry to be a pain, but I haven't seen this site before.