John Hannell IRVIN b. circa 1780

[Tim Irvin]

Hi Jeni,

I checked my family tree, and I could not find any mention of a Barbara Steel Irvin anywhere in there. I have my father staying with me presently, and he has no recollection of this name either. Sorry to disappoint, but it maybe you have the wrong family. However, it maybe missing from the tree I guess. Do you have any other leads?

Tim Irvin

[starsista]

Tim

Thank you for looking.  Barbara Steel IRVINE was baptised 28 July 1816 in Tynemouth, to John Hannel IRVIN and Jane.  I have the baptism image from the Durham Bishops Transcripts.  Familysearch have transcribed this as John Hannll and I can see quite clearly that first l is an e.  Some people on ancestry have said Jane's surname was POSS and I was informed from a Northumberland mailing list many years ago that her surname was HILL.  She had a brother Thomas baptised 24 June 1821 also in Tynemouth.  John is in both images as a mariner.  If you pm me your email, I can send you both images.

Jeni

[Tim Irvin]

Moderator comment: personal e-mail address removed in accordance with RootsChat general practice, to avoid others abusing or spamming it.

Looking at my family tree, John Hannell Irvine and Jane Hill had 3 children: John (Hannell Irvine), Jane and Anne. I know one of my relatives Julian put together the family tree so it is entirely possible this was missed off I guess.

I'll see if l can take a screen shot of the tree later when you send me your email.

Tim

[starsista]

Tim

Thank you.  Barbara's father was John Hannel IRVIN and her mother was Jane, whether she was Jane HILL or not, I can't say.  I was given Jane HILL and the marriage in 1801 in St Hilda's, South Shields from members of a Northumberland mailing list.  This information about this particular couple as parents may be incorrect.

I have also found Thomas IRVIN born to John Hannel and Jane IRVIN in 1821.  Looking at the dates, there would have been more children born in that time span.  I may have to go back to the drawing board with the parents.

Jeni

[Millmoor]

Have you looked at Genuki? There is a list in the section on South Shields St Hilda of all the marriages conducted there (from the George Bell  collection). Unfortunately I cannot see the one you are interested in - wonder why it appears on FS and seemingly nowhere else?

William

[Tim Irvin]

Hi Jeni,

Just a thought, but I have John H Irvine and Jane Hill having children Anne born 1804, John born 1807 and Jane born 1807. It is possible Barbara and Thomas came later, I think from your info 1816 & 1821 respectively, and they have just been missed of the tree by my relative who put it together?

Tim

[starsista]

William

Thank you.  When the birth of Barbara was transcribed, in various transcriptions, it was done with her father as John Hannll IRVIN and looking at the image in the Durham Bishops Transcripts I can clearly see his name is spelled Hannel.  As you say George Bell's list does not show any marriage in St Hilda's for a John Hannel IRVIN/E, I checked from 1800 right through to 1824 in his indexes, and couldn't find it.  I checked familysearch again and they are still showing the 1801 marriage, and this appears to be Tim's family and may not be mine.  Why the discrepancy I cannot say, except maybe human error at some stage, after all George Bell digitised already transcribed records, I believe.

I think I may have to check through Northumberland and Durham records to find the parents of Barbara.  Steel, as a middle name, might be a family name from down the line somewhere, I will have to keep searching for this couple.

I see, also, a John Honnell IRVIN and have also seen John Hannell IRVIN so the spelling of the middle name differs from transcription to transcription, as does the surname IRVIN/E.

Jeni

[starsista]

Tim

Are you in contact with your relative who put your tree together?  Is it possible he may be correct and I am barking up the wrong tree?  I have heard there are trees on ancestry which have Barbara and Thomas as step brother and step sister to other siblings, and I'm always careful about what I see on ancestry trees, there are so many indiscrepencies.  Some have Jane as Jane POSS.  Until I can see source documents, I tend to make notes to check for sources, rather than discarding the information right off.

I accepted the marriage in 1801 as that of Barbara's parents mostly because all other help that researcher had given me was found to be accurate, when I checked his information.

Jeni

[SelDen]

One on-line site mentioning the July 1801 event says it was Banns only - that is, the Banns were called but no marriage took place in St Hilda's, South Shields. This could mean that the couple married in another parish (Banns were meant to be called in both the bride's and the groom's parish).

I see www.familysearch.org also has a November 1801 date for this event - an error or did they marry later that year?

It is also possible that John & Jane did not actually marry although they did have the Banns called. I have found Banns (but no marriage) for a South Shields man & woman who both married different people within a year or two. I have also seen notes in the register of Banns for St Hilda's in which someone has noted that a bride & groom did not marry but were living together.

Assuming that the John & Jane who had the Banns called in 1801 were the parents of Barbara Steel Irvin, have you looked for non-conformist baptisms between 1801 & Barbara's baptism? Not uncommon for families to start off in one denomination and then lapse into the C of E after a while. Especially if only one of the parents was non-conformist to start with.

A C of E marriage at this date was the only option in England (except for limited exceptions e.g. for Quakers and Jews) so does not exclude the possibility of the family baptising their children in non-con churches.

I assume you are checking out the variants of Irwin/Urwin also? While the family may have had a spelling preference it does not mean that others complied with that preference.

Good luck.