Identification of Military Outfit

[weemantam]

Can someone identify the likely armed forces that this subject belonged to? Note the heavy coat, chest ammo belt, stirrups and a cap badge which may be a normal infantry badge or something I couldnt find which I reckoned may be an eagle looking to one side, just to blurry to tell for sure...?

Any help greatly appreciated.

Kind regards

Steve

PS He was from Cowdenbeath in Fife, Scotland if that makes a difference...

[ainslie]

The cap badge is in the distinctive shape of the Royal Artillery which in WW1 covered Royal Horse Artillery Royal Field Artillery and Royal Garrison Artillery.
The 'ammo belt' is a bandolier usually found with mounted troops which would point towards RHA or RFA.
Stirrups would be with the horse but spurs on the boots also point towards RHA or RFA.
If you have a name or other details for the soldier it might be possible for experts to reveal more.
In the absence of any visible badges of rank he was a Gunner or more likely a Driver.

Ainslie
Sorry, I missed reading the name in the original post.

[Jebber]

What year was Alexander born?

[weemantam]

Thanks Ainslie, I suspected Infantry, and yeah I meant spurs rather than stirrups sorry :/

Jebber, My biggest problem is that I have the name for this chap Alexander Penman, born In Cowdenbeath born 20th July 1895. There are two military entries for an Alexander Penman's born in Fife for around that time, except one is born two years previously (still in Cowdenbeath and having a father named 'James' later changed to a "guardian" by another name in 1917. The second one is from Dunfermline and, as i recall, using the middle initial "D" which doesnt apply here. My one was single unitl he wed in 1919 (a fact in itself suggesting he was possibly in service)

Feel free to have a look around for me since military records arent really my bag so to speak and any help in that regard would be appreciated. In the absence of an Army record (as the clarification of the cap badge now asserts) then there can only be three conclusions. One, his records are entirely lost - and I mean all of them ! - Two, he is wearing someone elses uniform as a photo op (which I'm obviously reluctant to assume) or three, he isnt the man I was told was in the photo. The photo of him 32 years later is a dead ringer but that doesnt discount it being perhaps being one of his brothers but then I wont have anyhting to compare it with and he will likely look just like them anyway!

The final option is I'm simply not looking in the right place for his army record.

As always, thanks for any continued assistance.

Steve
Tedious LOL

[Jebber]

This as you say, does not fit with your man
Alexander PENMAN bn. 1891 and  one bn. 1893 are the same person, this is at odds with the cap badge.
NOK Mother
address
44 Kirtle ST.
Cowdenbeath

Transferred from Royal Engineers
15th Bn. Tank Corps
31 Elgin Rd
Union Street Cowdenbeath
Demobed 12 Feb 1919

The only Artillery connection I can see is for an
Alexander PENMAN from Cowdenbeath
bn 1881, too old for your man.
Attested Artillery Militia
24 March 1898

One can only conclude your Alexander's records are among the 70% lost in WW2, or as you suggest, the photo is of a brother, none of who's names you have mentioned.
Have you looked for record for a brother in one of the branches of the Artillery?

Jebber

[weemantam]

His address at the time of war was 46 Thistle street which is very similar to 44 Kirtle Street? I'm intrigued..?

It's not any of the brothers because the next oldest (who made it to adulthood) was born in 1901 which makes him too young to really have made it into that uniform without being obviously teenage-r-ay.

[Jebber]

I am sorry I think I have misled you, my previous post was pasted in from notes and some of the details were attached to the wrong person.

After your comment about your Alexander's address being 46 Thistle St, I have gone through the records again and the address I found  was 44 Thistle St, (not Kirtle) the only problem being, it is for the Alexander Penman born 1881, and attested into  Artillery Militia, mother NOK, he is too old to be  your man.

Given that the addresses are neighbouring properties, and the names are the same, it would be too much of a coincidence for there not to be a  connection somewhere..

[weemantam]

Your quite right, I have Alexander Penman aged 33  from 44 Thistle Street on the 1901 census (making his yob 1878-ish) This would almost certainly make him the uncle of the Alexander I initially referred to (there are good reasons for this basis - I'm not just makingit up).

That said, if the younger one was to be in the infantry during the war he would be between 19 and 23 in that photo. If it were the elder (uncle) then he would be (based on the 1911 census age) between 37 and 41.

I'm slightly inclined towards the latter given the lack of data for the former (I assume you 70% loss of records related to WW1 and not WW2 as you mentioned in a previous post?) The likeness of the two in photos can be explained by how closely related they are... the attached is from 1951.

That being true it's going to make that photo in some 10 trees wrong LOL

[Jebber]

Yes, the loss of records were for WW1, they were lost in a fire in WW2.

Records for people serving after 1920 are still held by the MOD. Information on obtaining them can be found at :-
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records

There is a charge of 30GB pounds and you have to provide their death certificate.

You make the remark  about the possibility of ten trees being wrong, if they are trees on Ancestry then it is extremely likely. It only takes one person to enter an incorrect tree, for it then to be replicated many times over,  a lot of people simply copy information without doing their own research. There  are many trees on line, incorrectly containing some of my family, simply because someone thought a name and date fitted their tree, others have then copied it.