SMALL - What is this place on a baptism in Moulin?

[Liviani]

A Leonard Small and Ann(e) Robertson had 2 children in Moulin around this time. I will assume it's the same Leonard Small here.

Details of the children they had;

Christian Small b. 28/10/1728     Kirkmichael        Twins!
Anna Small b. 28/10/1728           Kirkmichael
Alexander Small b. 09/03/1730    Kirkmichael
Patrick Small b. 28/07/1737    Moulin
Leonard Small b. 02/07/1744    Moulin

Leonard Small and an Anna Robertson married in Moulin on 21/03/1727.

Interestingly Leonard and Ann(e)(a) didn't have any children after 1744 and this article was posted in November 1744. Potentially some financial reason there with that decision 

Hmm,

That may be purely coincidence given the births were over a period of 17 yrs & depending on their ages at time of marriage?

Annie

Very true, didn't think to calculate the timespan involved.

I think certainly the first birth coincides with being a year after marriage and it coming up with the correct names. This is all without confirmation due to lack of SP credits until next Friday though.

Searched all births in Perthshire on SP up until 1760 with surname Small and parent's name inserted was Leonard. The only other couples with a Leonard Small appearing are;

Leonard & Elspit McDonald (they had a child Donald 1727 in Kirkmichael) and Leonard Small & Ann Stewart.

Leonard and Ann Stewart did have a child in 1733 called Beatrix in Moulin but they don't appear again in my search up till 1760. Leonard and Elspit also appear only once.

It could possibly be any of them, but I feel that Leonard with Ann Robertson is the same Leonard in Tarvie mentioned in the newspaper report in 1744. I'd need to access the record of the birth in 1744 to see if it does mention Tarvie again to confirm, but that will happen next week. Until then I'll have to settle for my unconfirmed feeling.

Jill

[Liviani]

Another reason for my 'hunch' is that if they used conventional naming patterns, Leonard jr was the third son born which matches tradition of naming the third son after the father. But that would be speculation really.

I believe that 'Christian' was actually an older version of 'Christina' so the 2 first borns (the twins) would be female.

Jill

[Rosinish]

I would agree to christian most likely being female.

Did you read my Reply #43?

Annie

[Liviani]

I would agree to christian most likely being female.

Did you read my Reply #43?

Annie

Oops, silly me, yes I did read it and was set to reply but had completely forgotten to do so. 

It seems that Robertson and Rattray appear a few times, but that could just be coincidence as you say. The names seem quite common in these parishes and later spreading further out into Angus, Dundee etc.

The reason I thought of 'arranged' marriages was that these families appeared to have quite a comfortable lifestyle compared to the majority. I saw a figure in the Small scrapbook about money left in an estate (http://www.mountblairarchive.org/content/the_written_word/people/small-family-scrapbook )  and converted it to today's money and saw it was about £1 million (maybe more) 

Not sure if things were different in societies like these at that time. Just a thought. 

Yeah, it seems the name Leonard does crop up quite a bit in the Smalls and Robertsons in the area. Certainly up until my 3x Great Grandfather Leonard Small the name was still being passed on.

At a bit of a frustrating point trying to work out my last confirmed ancestor's father (Patrick Small's father mentioned in the baptism record of Leonard born 1773).

So many Patrick's flying around then. 

Jill

[Rosinish]

The further back the harder it is to prove.

I have plenty of them, people I think to be related but nothing to join the dots with & yes it's very frustrating.

http://www.scotclans.com/scottish-clans/clan-robertson/


For Small, click on Murray (in blue type)

http://www.scotclans.com/scottish-clans/whats-my-clan/clan-search-result/?search=small

Annie

[Liviani]

Amendment for Reply #21

"burgh in barony of Kethik lying in the Baitschailhauche" = Keithick

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ju9/

Can't get the 'Baitschailhauche' 

Annie

Been on Scotlands places and browsing the Coupar section. Noticed there was a house called Ballinsho/Balinsho/Ballinshoes in the tax rolls mentioned a few times. Mentioned as Ballinshoes House also. And it's lands.

It's not too far from where we were looking at the other day re William Small.

Perhaps it's this?

Thank you for the links Annie, much appreciated and very interesting.

Yeah these dead ends are frustrating for me, I wish there was a way of proving a close link between my Smalls and the Smalls of Dinanern only a few miles away.

Jill

[Liviani]

Found out a little bit more about Tarvie Lodge/Tarvie House. Attached an image of an historical environment record of the estate. It shows this info about what was contained on the estate. The info is quite minimal but it gives a general idea.

"Site Type: FARMSTEAD, SHEEP FOLD, LIME KILN, HEAD DYKE, HUNTING LODGE
Council: Perth and Kinross"

Taken from pastmap



Found a more up to date architect's site regarding demolishing the shooting lodge and building a new house over it. It was apparently completed in 2015.

Slightly better than the other design was, but still, in my opinion, doesn't suit the surroundings.

http://cameronwebster.com/project/tarvie-shooting-lodge/

There is some slight background information here on Tarvie Lodge, but not much.

Now I'm not sure when the original Tarvie Lodge was built but it doesn't "seem" from the time Leonard Small and Margaret Robertson had my 4x great grandfather, Leonard there (1773). It seems too Victorian. Can't seem to find much about the house anywhere online except for the odd picture here and there.

Here is another picture of what Tarvie Lodge was like; http://tour-scotland-photographs.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/old-photograph-tarvie-lodge-enochdhu.html

Anyone know anything about buildings to know when it was roughly built

I have a birth record for one of Leonard's (b.1773) siblings. Anne Small b.1771. The residence was stated as Tarvie then.

This is something I came across regarding one of Leonard's brother's -

A Patrick Peter Small b.1782

https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=48623544

Can't seem to find anything on SP regarding his marriage mentioned in that link to Isobell Rattray (there's that Rattray name again!).

However I've found a birth for an Isabella Rattray Small b. 7th February 1822 in Longforgan, parents stated as Peter Small and Isobell Rattray. Whether or not Peter is Patrick

I'm a bit dubious about Patrick Peter due to finding this on ancestry. Take much of it with a grain of salt really and just use it as a base to start searching on SP and/or other sites. However it has been useful in many ways.

Now on the ongoing quest to finding a potential link to The Smalls of Dirnanean. I have a feeling this will all prove fruitless due to the lack of records starting at Patrick Small b.1750 and going back from there.

Now, what do we know?

• My 4x Great-Grandfather Leonard was born at Tarvie, Moulin to Patrick Small and Margaret Robertson.
  
  Tarvie is only a small distance from Dirnanean, Straloch and Kindrogan. Straloch is mentioned on Wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Small_(Scottish_factor) "James Small was a member of the Smalls of Dirnanean and the Robertsons of Straloch"
  
  Tarvie could be Robertson lands? See the distance in the image below. Basically neighbours.
  
  
  
  A Patrick William Small lived in Glenisla in the 1800s with his wife Amelia Rattray. He was a local landowner. There was a monument built in Glenisla to commemorate him. See Wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkton_of_Glenisla  Also Find a grave: https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=76771964
  
  In the newspaper clippings attached to the find a grave entry above it mentions that there are various branches of Smalls throughout Perthshire.
  
  This is Patrick William Small's son James, who also has a memorial; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Small_(Scottish_laird)
  
  Around 1808 I believe my 4x gt-grandfather Leonard to be living in Glenisla. He married a Jannet McKenzie in 1808 before marrying my 4x gt-grandmother. Jannet must have died before this. Can't find any record of her death though.
  
  Findlay Small b.1809 was Leonard and Jannet's first child. He was born in Glenisla.
  
  Margaret Small b. 1811 was born in Glenisla also. This was Jannet's last child. Leonard doesn't have another child until 1827, this time Airlie, Angus. So he has moved after I presume Jannet died.

What does this all tell me? Nothing concrete that's for sure. But, given the time period and locations I feel there just HAS to be a link to Dirnanean somewhere. Finding that link though, impossible. It must be further back.

Tarvie, Straloch, Glenisla, Moulin, Kirkmichael, The name Patrick occurring in my branch repeatedly, marrying Robertsons and Rattrays. The signs all point there.

Perhaps I'm reaching, but this is just a feeling, and and a pretty strong one.

[Isabel H]

Peter/Patrick are sometimes used interchangeably in old records.

As regards the age of the former house at Tarvie, many seemingly Victorian houses have older origins and the core of that house may have been much older. No guarantee it was the same house, but Perth & Kinross Council Archives cat. mentions Gilbert Steuart of Tarvie (1691) and Donald Gray in Tarvie (1761).

[Liviani]

Peter/Patrick are sometimes used interchangeably in old records.

As regards the age of the former house at Tarvie, many seemingly Victorian houses have older origins and the core of that house may have been much older. No guarantee it was the same house, but Perth & Kinross Council Archives cat. mentions Gilbert Steuart of Tarvie (1691) and Donald Gray in Tarvie (1761).

Thanks for this info. Forgot to think about various additions and extensions that would've been carried out. Does anyone know of a source that would potentially have records of anything like this?
NRS perhaps? Going to guess there wasn't anything like "planning permission" back then and it was just a case of build if you want to? But still, perhaps there's something somewhere?

Very interesting, thank you. I have seen Steuarts/Stewarts and Grays mentioned in Tarvie in previous times also.

I've also discovered the term "township" mentioned on the map from pastmap. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Township_(Scotland)

Also, http://pastmap.org.uk/ I've found to be an incredibly useful resource for finding places that may no longer exist or to get an idea of distance between places back then. Proximity does give a general feel to relations in the area I think.

I highly recommend using pastmap to fill in any gaps that you can't via Scotland's Places or similar.

Make sure in layers in the right hand side "Historic environment record" is ticked. This will bring up little green areas that can be clicked on to get further information about a plot, building, old township name, buildings contained on an estate or farm e.g. lime kiln, sheep folds etc.

I feel that this should be recommended elsewhere on these boards if it hasn't been already? Didn't think to check before writing this. It has been a godsend to me.

Jill