My Monmouthshire 'brickwall'

[GrahamTanner]

Can anyone offer any suggestions to help me overcome my 'brickwall' while searching for my Grandfather from Monmouthshire.
This is a bit long and complicated to explain, but I hope I'm doing the right thing ....

I am trying to find birth details for my grand-father, Joseph DAVIES (JD). As far as I can tell, he was from Monmouthshire, and this is a rather common name in that part of the world!

He married my grandmother (Alice M E Trenery, from Cornwall) in December 1901 in Pontywaun, Risca. I have a copy of the certificate, and it gives both their ages as '21' which would indicate that JD was born in 1886. I still don't know exactly where he was born in Wales, but I'm asuming that it was in Monmouthshire. On the wedding certificate it gives his address as 100 Newport Road, Cwmcarn, Abercarn, and his father as John DAVIES; both listed as being 'coal miners'.
(Q) - can anypone locate that address for me in the 1901 Census?

The wedding certificate does not mention a middle name, or a middle initial, so I am unable to narrow down my search.

I have been able to find too many people with this name born in 1886 so I am unable to decide which is the best fit. I have been trying to find out if JD had a middle name/initial which would help with any future searches. The whole family moved to London in the mid 1930s and I have been searching various other sources for evidence of a middle name/initial. I have checked Electoral Rolls for the late 30s and late 40s (he died in 1953), but they just list his name as 'Joseph DAVIES'.
(Q) is there anywhere else that I could check for evidence of a middle name or initial.

The 1907 wedding certificate says that they married at the 'Trinity Congregational Church' in Pontywaun, Risca. I found an entry for that church in the Gwent Records Office, for the 'Church and Deacons Minute Book'. I though that viewing this might prove useful, but it says the book covers 1908 to 1990, and they married in December 1907!

What else am I missing?

[rhys]

Hello Graham
There would appear to be only one Joseph/John combination
in Monmouthshire In 1901 which fits.
They are in Abercarn and are both coal hewers.
 Does anyone in your family know the names of your
 grand fathers siblings or your great grandmothers name?
If you need details of the 1901 family let me know.
You mention the marriage date as 1901. Is that correct?
Any significance in the wedding witnesses?
Rhys
   

[DebbieDee]

Hi,

There are only 4 Joseph Davies in Abercarn 1901 assuming they were living there then.  Out of these 1 is born about 1857 so I think can be discounted.  This leaves the following:

Joseph Davies 15 Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, Wales Son 
Joseph E Davies 11 Newbridge, Monmouthshire, Wales Son 
Joseph J Davies 12 Mynyddyslwyn, Monmouthshire, Wales Son 

As no middle name was used when he married my favourite would be Joseph Davies age 15 as he is also the correct age.  His father is also called John so here are the full details:

10 Jones Terrace, Abercarn, Monmouthshire   RG13/4968 129 29
John Davies 54 Langoteg, Breconshire, Head Coal Hewer
Ann Davies 44 Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, Wife 
David J Davies 16 Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, Son Coal Hewer
Joseph Davies 15 Bedwellty, Monmouthshire, Son Coal Hewer
Seth Davies 11 Cwm Carn, Monmouthshire, Son     
Ann Davies 9 Cwm Carn, Monmouthshire, Daughter 
Thomas Davies 7 Cwm Carn, Monmouthshire, Son 


Joseph E Davies also has a father called John so I will give the details just in case.
RG13/4967 71 39 52 Greenfield, Abercarn, Monmouthshire    
John Davies 43 Tredegar, Monmouthshire, Head  Colliery ??man below ground
Annie Davies 35 Tillington, Herefordshire, England Wife  
Margaret Davies 13 Newbridge, Monmouthshire, Daughter  
Joseph E Davies 11 Newbridge, Monmouthshire, Son  
David J Davies 10 Newbridge, Monmouthshire, Son  
Winifred R Davies 6 Newbridge, Monmouthshire, Daughter  
Wm E Davies 2 Newbridge, Monmouthshire, Son  
John Davies 1 Newbridge, Monmouthshire, Son  

I would also be a little wary of taking their ages on marriage as correct.  A quick check for Alice Trenery born in Cornwall brings up only one possibility age 9 in 1901.  Of course she might not be the right one but I have numerous examples in my own tree of people lying about their age on marriage.

Are there any Davies witnesses to the marriage?  Just wondering if they match anyone.

Good luck with your search

Debbie  

[GrahamTanner]

All,

Thank you for the replies, and for taking the time to help me with my research.

Firstly, I should point out a typo in my original text ... they were married in December 1907, not 1901.

Rhys.
As you can see above, I got the marriage date wrong. The names of the witnesses on the certificate are William George Harbin and Arthur Henry Williams. Unfortunately there is nobody left alive from that generation (my grandparents) who I can ask, and also nobody from the next generation (my parents/aunts & uncles). The few remaining people who are still alive (now in their 70s/80s) are all the same generation as me. They have very little knowledge of their ancestors, other than their own parents.

DebbieDee.
I had found those three Joseph Davies', but I'm still not 100% convinced that any of them is correct. I also favour the one who was aged 15 in 1901 (living at 10 Jones Terrace).
  Once Joseph and Alice were married they set about re-populating the valleys with gay abandon; I think that they had 11 children in the following 17 years!. One child (my uncle) was 'Thomas Seth' (possibly named after two of the brothers of Joseph). But, another child of Joseph and Alice was named Winifred (my mother) - who was a sister of Joseph E Davies. Either could be true.

I can understand the reasons for not believing the ages on the marriage certificate. I think that I read somewhere that you had to be 21 to get married in those days, and it does seem suspicious that both were 21.
I also found the Alice Trenery in Cornwall, born in 1892. I am reasonably sure that this is the correct person, so she would be aged 17 when she got married. So she lied about her age, but she could have also lied about her father for the marriage cert - she said he was 'James Trenery (deceased)', but the father of Alice T born in 1892 was named Joseph. Yet more confusion!


Additional questions.

On the marriage certificate my grandmother's address is given as 12 Silver Street, Pontywaun, Risca. Can anyone find a 1901 Census entry for that address.

If 'my' Joseph DAVIES is the one from Jones Terrace in Abercarn, his father was John DAVIES born in Langoteg in Breconshire. Is there such a place? I can't find it in my road atlas or doing a google search for it.


 Thanks.

[rhys]

Hi Graham
william george harbin was Josephs stepbrother
on one census, Will post details
Rhys

[KeithS]

The age 21 reference is slightly misleading. I'm not sure of the minimum age for marriage, it might have been 14 or the current 16. Under 21, consent of parents was required. If they married in their local church, where their parents would be known, the ages are likely to be correct.

[rhys]

Hi Graham
Here they are in 1891 Mynyddislwyn
The family ties in with the one provided by Debbie in 1901
Victoria  is probably the  Village in Bedwelty parish
Near Ebbw Vale.
Llangattock is probably the 1901 parish for John`s birthplace
The town of Brynmawr Brecs was split between Llanelly and Llangattock
parish`s.
Rhys


RG12 4382 73 56
10 JONES TERRACE
DAVIES John       H  M  44  platelayer    Brec      Llanelly
                Annie      W  M  34                      Mon     Victoria   
               David        S         6                             do
               Joseph    S           5                             do
                Seth          S           1                        Mon   Cwmcarn
HARBIN William George  SS  15  Lampboy           Victoria
                                   


                                   

[rhys]

Hi
here is the probable marriage

Surname  First name(s)    District  Vol  Page 

~~~~~~~~
Marriages Sep 1883
~~~~~~~~
 
Davies  John    Bedwelty  11a 152   
HARBIN  Annie     Bedwelty  11a 152   
HOLBROOK  Samuel     Bedwelty  11a 152   
SMITH  Mary Ann     Bedwelty  11a 152   



~~~~~~~~