Author Topic: 1939 register - closing an open identity  (Read 18522 times)

Offline Nick_Ips

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #81 on: Monday 20 February 17 00:16 GMT (UK) »

A good point about the US 1940 census vrvt, although they are operating under different rules of course!

It does make me wonder if anybody features on the UK 1939 Register AND the US 1940 census AND is still living  ;D

Offline Rosinish

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #82 on: Monday 20 February 17 02:32 GMT (UK) »
Quote from Guy..

"Problem is it is not simply FMPs rules they have been given rules by the NHS and GRO about what records to open and what to redact.
They have been given a "list" of those officially deceased, if the open record is on the deceased list they have to apply rigorous rules to close the record otherwise ID fraud could take place using the claim that the deceased person is still alive today"

So we have 2 Bodies working together? which seems logical/much researched/proven/confirmed?

I can understand the for & against debates here as stated in one of my earlier posts, there may be info. (nothing to do with the threat of fraud) but 'family secrets' being open (in error) & those people (with the 'secrets') are alive but their personal info. (which shouldn't be open) is open to the world.

If those 2 bodies are working together, how on this earth can the NHS & GRO have such grave errors (no pun intended) as surely, a Doctor would need to verify a death which would then be registered with GRO prior to it then being passed to FindMyPast by whatever means?

I understand that;

(A) It could be potentially dangerous for leaked info. of open living people
(B) It may pave the way for the government to put the brakes on things available

BUT, what I can't understand is the fact that no-one seems to be taking any blame for info. which should be closed.

Were there that many mistakes on death notices which had to be signed by a Doctor then taken to the Registrar to be recorded?

If a complaint of a living person is open & asked to be closed, surely with the info. the NHS & GRO have regarding the 'supposed' deceased person, it can surely be confirmed quite easily that this isn't the case especially as we have seen on earlier posts, there are no deaths with those names in those areas with matching ages.......

So, rather than admit their errors, blame the public for 'complaining' & close them all, rather than employ competent staff who know how to verify things by cross referencing things.

Maybe they need to advertise those vacancies in that field on RC where they may find competent individuals who actually know how to cross reference important data  ???

Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #83 on: Monday 20 February 17 09:36 GMT (UK) »
Yes, I have already read the whole of this thread.

1) I cannot stress enough that I don't care whether Michael Heseltine's  (by the way, he is a Lord nowadays, not a Mr!) privacy has been invaded, but the only easy way to get a big enough sample of verified living people to check was to choose famous people.  Dates of birth for ordinary people are not so easy to get, though I realise that you can get someone's birth certificate - but you have to pay for that.

Thankfully here in England and Wales we live in a free society, which has no law of privacy, despite what many presume.

2) The first thing I did when I realised that records had been wrongly opened was to contact FindMyPast and advise them that they should immediately roll back the update until they had figured out what went wrong. After some discussion with them and getting nowhere, I contacted TNA and it was only when I finally realised that neither organisation was ever going to admit that there was a problem that I contacted the ICO (which, by the way, TNA advised me to do.)  I would have hoped that the 1939 Register would set the standard for future databases which contain closed records of living people which can be automatically opened after their deaths, but since there is such an obvious error in processing of the 1939 Register, it needs to be sorted out now before it can be used as a basis for any future projects.

Have you actually looked to see what the Data Protection Act 1998 (DPA) regards as sensitive personal data?

Data Protection Act 1998, Part 1, Section 2

2 Sensitive personal data.

In this Act “sensitive personal data” means personal data consisting of information as to—

(a)the racial or ethnic origin of the data subject,
(b)his political opinions,
(c)his religious beliefs or other beliefs of a similar nature,
(d)whether he is a member of a trade union (within the meaning of the M1Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992),
(e)his physical or mental health or condition,
(f)his sexual life,
(g)the commission or alleged commission by him of any offence, or
(h)any proceedings for any offence committed or alleged to have been committed by him, the disposal of such proceedings or the sentence of any court in such proceedings.

The 1939 National Registration as released does not contain any of that data therefore it is safe to say there are no concerns in that respect.

It is not true that a record has to be unlocked before you get any meaningful information, as data such as date of birth can indeed be obtained without even logging into FindMyPast.  I would not like to go into details of how I think people might use a database made up of data copied from the 1939 Register.

Have you also considered that for instance names have to be made available by law under various enactments i.e. the Marriage Act, 1949, Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1953, etc. and are therefore exempt from the DPA under Part IV section 34-

34 Information available to the public by or under enactment.

Personal data are exempt from—

(a)the subject information provisions,
(b)the fourth data protection principle and section 14(1) to (3), and
(c)the non-disclosure provisions,
if the data consist of information which the data controller is obliged by or under any enactment [F1other than an enactment contained in the Freedom of Information Act 2000] to make available to the public, whether by publishing it, by making it available for inspection, or otherwise and whether gratuitously or on payment of a fee.

Have you also considered that the NHS is required under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FoI) to release the 1939 National Registration records.
They first did this using FoI requests by this was costly and time consuming for the NHS and they changed that system for the current publication scheme as noted as a duty under the FoI

Have you also looked at the Information Commissioner’s (IC) ruling about redaction of information?

Reference: FS50248664,  Freedom of Information Act 2000 (Section 50)
Decision Notice Date: 9 November 2009.

In his ruling the IC acknowledged
1, “the NHSIC has not been able to provide any information about any promise of confidentiality given when the information was obtained”

2, The IC “notes that the withheld information would fall under the definition of ‘personal census information’ as set out in the Census Act 1920 (the “Census Act”). Section 8(2)” however he also makes clear that the 1939 National Registration “that the 1939 Register does not fall under this legislation”.
That means such legislation does not have effect on the 1939 national Registration.

I would also note that the IC in the ruling on the 1911 census required the GRO to evaluate the information in the disabilities column of the census and make a decision on each individual case whether to released that information or redact it.
This shows that just because certain information is personal to the individual it does not necessarily imply that it is sensitive information that should be redacted.

Cheers
Guy
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Offline Nick_Ips

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #84 on: Monday 20 February 17 10:01 GMT (UK) »
Hi Annie, I can't say that I have a full knowledge of how the NHS/TNA/FindMyPast approached the opening of the additional records, but the responses from TNA on the blog give a reasonable idea.

That the final number of records matched and opened was circa 2 million gives an idea of the scale of the project - we can only guess at the total number of death records/1939 entries which were examined and not matched. The only realistic way of doing this is number crunching by computer - having real people like us doing the job isn't feasible, however much better we are at doing it  ;D

The problem is list A (the 1939 Register) contains errors. List B (the deaths) also contains errors. These errors are unavoidable and include - for example - that a person's official name could be 'John Robert Smith', but appears on the 1939 Register as just 'John Smith'. We all know from our own research the flexibility of 'facts' about people as we follow them through their lives in the records.

So the problem is that when list A is compared to list B it is inevitable that there will be some false matches. The laws of random errors applied to large datasets mean that somewhere an incorrect entry will provide a false match and a record will be opened in error.

This is what the NHS/TNA/FindMyPast/ICO looked at and concluded there was an acceptable error rate. It doesn't explain how Michael Heseltine's record was opened though.

If we want access to large datasets that contain information about living people then we, as a society, have to accept that some living people's data will become public. The key issue is the response from the data publishers when they are alerted to records opened in error.

From what I've read part of the problem is the fact post 2007 deaths are not available to FindMyPast in the same way earlier death records are. Which is interesting because it would appear that adopting a less open approach with the recent death data (presumably for security and privacy protection) has indirectly led to incorrect opening of 1939 Register entries and difficulties for individuals to prove to FindMyPast that they haven't died yet.


Offline katerimmer

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #85 on: Monday 20 February 17 11:45 GMT (UK) »
No, I have not gone through the Data Protection Act etc. I asked FindMyPast whether the records of living people in the 1939 Register were covered by their Data Protection Act registration, or exempt (as I assumed there was no point contacting the ICO about it if they were exempt), and if exempt, why, and their reply was just that living people's records are closed if they are under 100 years old, which didn't help. So I contacted the ICO and they said to open a case.  It's up to them now.

If the 1939 Register records of living people are not covered by the Data Protection Act then I wonder why the "Takedown form" for the 1939 Register on Findmypast says "You can use this form to request a takedown of a record if the information you have found is open and you believe it should be closed under the Data Protection Act 1998."  But I don't really think there would be any point asking Findmypast.

To my mind, the question is not whether living people's records should be opened or not, but whether FindMyPast's process for opening records actually stuck to the rules which they had agreed with TNA, and if it did, there must be something seriously wrong with the post-2007 GRO death index as it must include records exactly matching people who are still alive who are considered "unique" according to the matching rules (e.g. there must have been a death registration for a Michael R Heseltine with the exact same date of birth as Lord Heseltine., a death registration for a Dennis E Skinner with the exact same date of birth as the MP, and so on.)  I am hoping that we will eventually know what the explanation is!

 
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Offline Nick_Ips

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #86 on: Monday 20 February 17 12:42 GMT (UK) »

Kate, the response from TNA on 22 December said:

Quote
The methodology was determined by The National Archives in advance of any of this work taking place, and we are satisfied that Findmypast and the third party have followed the methodology to the letter.
(my emphasis added)

Are you saying you think FindMyPast didn't follow the agreed methodology and TNA are now turning a 'blind eye' to it?

Offline katerimmer

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #87 on: Monday 20 February 17 13:16 GMT (UK) »

Kate, the response from TNA on 22 December said:

Quote
The methodology was determined by The National Archives in advance of any of this work taking place, and we are satisfied that Findmypast and the third party have followed the methodology to the letter.
(my emphasis added)

Are you saying you think FindMyPast didn't follow the agreed methodology and TNA are now turning a 'blind eye' to it?

Either that, or that the agreed methodology was faulty, or that the files which they used for matching against have a much higher error rate than they thought.
Bristow, Horsleydown; Glasscodine, anywhere; Ferrier, Edinburgh; Lucey, Bermondsey; Horner, Essex; Bowskill, Elkesley; Salter, Great Yarmouth; Vowles, Bedminster/Cardiff; Morgan, Breconshire; Vidgen, New Romney

Offline Rosinish

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #88 on: Monday 20 February 17 13:45 GMT (UK) »
Quote from Nick_lps;

"If we want access to large datasets that contain information about living people then we, as a society, have to accept that some living people's data will become public. The key issue is the response from the data publishers when they are alerted to records opened in error.

From what I've read part of the problem is the fact post 2007 deaths are not available to FindMyPast in the same way earlier death records are. Which is interesting because it would appear that adopting a less open approach with the recent death data (presumably for security and privacy protection) has indirectly led to incorrect opening of 1939 Register entries and difficulties for individuals to prove to FindMyPast that they haven't died yet."

Yes I agree errors are inevitable as no-one is infallible.

What I don't understand (whether or not), "FindMyPast didn't follow the agreed methodology and TNA are now turning a 'blind eye' to it?", why FindMyPast are able to close some without any hassle yet others are being asked to prove a person is still alive which to me is harder than proving someone is deceased?

From reading the % of expected errors (which seems low) compared to the amount of records released then the % of people who come across any error is going to be considerably smaller again i.e. why does FindMyPast not take the complaint on board, investigate it & close it if should have been closed in the 1st place?

Again, each to their own but I will mention again that there may be 'secret' information which is my concern e.g. an illegitimate child who no-one knew/knows about & the parent is still living!
Of course there may be other things but that's just an example.

FindMyPast need a better approach when it is brought to their attention that the person is still living (by a relative) if the relative asks for it to be closed as I doubt Joe Bloggs who comes across an open entry is going to go to the bother to ask for it to be closed  ::)

Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline Nick_Ips

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #89 on: Monday 20 February 17 14:09 GMT (UK) »

Again, each to their own but I will mention again that there may be 'secret' information which is my concern e.g. an illegitimate child who no-one knew/knows about & the parent is still living!
Of course there may be other things but that's just an example.

Always an issue with family history, you never know what you might find.

There is a significant difference between the 1939 Register and census records which is there is no information about relationships in the 1939 Register. So someone concerned about an illegitimate child could simply explain it by saying the child was a friend/relative etc staying with the family at the time.

I've found countless records where the number of redacted records doesn't match the number of children I'd expected the family to have. Are these lots of 'secret' children? I have no idea, but my expectation looking at other records is there were an awful lot of evacuees living with random families in 1939, so the 'fog of war' could be used even now to cover for any 'tricky' situation.

In terms of discovering illegitimate children, the new GRO index and FreeBMD offer far more scope  :-X