Author Topic: 1939 register - closing an open identity  (Read 18546 times)

Offline Rosinish

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #63 on: Friday 10 February 17 02:53 GMT (UK) »
I got in touch with FindMyPast this morning, and they are "investigating", and told me that either they will close the entries within 48 hours, or I will have to use the button requesting closure (with, of course, the required documentary proof of life!)

I hope you replied by requesting their proof of the death which doesn't exist.

I would also mention that they are breaking the law as they obviously don't have the proof.

It's easier to prove a death than prove someone is still alive & they should be using the proof of a death for each of their entries prior to it being opened.

Are they using 'hints' for deaths or actual documents?

It would be interesting to know just exactly how they work?

My bugbear is not having immediate access to Scottish 1939 records which is surprising as SP's records (up until the recent change) have been magnificent compared with others.

Annie

South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline Nick_Ips

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #64 on: Friday 10 February 17 14:02 GMT (UK) »

Could the people getting hot under the collar and shouting 'scandal' please reflect on the possible implications of their actions on future access to new recordsets.

I can understand the anguish and frustration caused by finding the implied death of a close relative and being asked to prove they are still alive. I can also understand the concern about protecting potentially vulnerable people from identity fraud and scams.

However, if you take a handwritten dataset which potentially has living people included and seek to place that information online in a searchable form then it is virtually impossible to ensure that absolutely no living people's details will be included in the published data. Seeking to achieve 100% accuracy in the process would mean it is not economically viable.

If the people complaining loudly are listened to the next time there is a dataset including potentially alive people then those people in charge who are quite happy to keep all data hidden will be able to point to the "terrible invasion of privacy" which the 1939 Register was as justification to keep 'their' data hidden because just one mistake could lead to compensation claims etc.

In real terms the published data on the 1939 Register does not pose much of a security risk. Married names and maiden names are easily found by other methods. As Clairec666 points out, DoB (the 'correct' one!) can be obtained by ordering a certificate - and indeed is readily available online for anyone who has been a UK company director. Having an incorrect DoB opened on the 1939 Register could even be a security benefit as any fraudster who decided to use those details may well trip anti-fraud alarms!

In the last couple of years I've opened many new bank accounts - the information you need to provide is substantially more than name, address and date of birth. The information you provide is verified against databases and cross-checked - even for opening savings accounts. I had one application rejected because the word I gave for 'mother's maiden name' did not match the record held in a third-party database.  ::) (Not surprising as my Mmn changes with every bank!)

It is very difficult to get a credit card or loan if you don't have a quite active credit history - this in itself is likely to be a protection for our older vulnerable relatives.

Fraudsters are business people, time is money. They are unlikely to spend hours trawling through the 1939 Register to identify someone whose record has been opened in error in order to find out their (possibly incorrect) date of birth. There are far more economically efficient ways of getting ID's to scam!

So please, don't shout too loudly that records are open which should be closed. So long as FindMyPast take a reasonable approach to closing incorrectly opened records that should be enough. And yes, 'reasonable' should include checking to ensure the person asking for the (re)closure has the authority to ask. Imagine the outrage you'd feel if you discovered FindMyPast had closed your ancestor's record because a stranger had made a mistake, or made a malicious request?

Offline majmpsychorc

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #65 on: Saturday 11 February 17 03:39 GMT (UK) »
I agree Nick_lps

I highly doubt a scammer would waste a whole lot of time & money searching 1939.

PLEASE don't make it even harder for future datasets to be released.

I thought people would be more concerned how easy it is to track living people and their details through social media and newspapers.

With the information living people put out there on social media (ALMOST EVERYTHING) it's easy to connect an entire family [siblings, parents, nana, cousins, aunties, nephews, in-laws etc]
It's easy then to track some through various bdm datasbases and finally through newspapers finding living people's birth details and marriage notices. Death notices which acknowledge living family members.

My mum who is 84 and living, I told her all her personal details were available online free to view newspapers. When I showed her she was clearly happy, ended up printing copies for her.
Her 1933 birth & 1954 marriage notice and myself & my twin sister birth in 1957 announcing my parents having twin girls and my marriage in 1980 can be viewed in New South Wales newspapers.

You can also find living people in the electoral roll today.

Guessing my private life is not so private. :o

Jane

Offline StevieSteve

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #66 on: Saturday 11 February 17 04:54 GMT (UK) »
I've got nothing against using 100 as a cut-off, it's what I use for my Ancestry tree. What I'm saying is that FindMyPast are in a no-win situation if they take a hardline approach when it's exceeded or misapplied.

A good reputation for strictly enforcing data integrity is not going to outweigh the perception that you go around harassing OAPs, if someone wants to portray it that way. You can almost see them wheeling out a chap wearing a string of medals saying "I served my country for 80 years, now they say I don't exist"

I would have thought that a approach along the lines of "Not dead? Oh, I'm glad to hear that. Of course we'll close the record. It'll take about a week. In the meantime, could you send me a mail confirming what you've  told me  so my boss knows why I've made the change. If you've got any supporting documentation that'd be great" would be better.

Middlesex: KING,  MUMFORD, COOK, ROUSE, GOODALL, BROWN
Oxford: MATTHEWS, MOSS
Kent: SPOONER, THOMAS, KILLICK, COLLINS
Cambs: PRIGG, LEACH
Hants: FOSTER
Montgomery: BREES
Surrey: REEVE


Offline clairec666

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #67 on: Saturday 11 February 17 08:19 GMT (UK) »
I would have thought that a approach along the lines of "Not dead? Oh, I'm glad to hear that. Of course we'll close the record. It'll take about a week. In the meantime, could you send me a mail confirming what you've  told me  so my boss knows why I've made the change. If you've got any supporting documentation that'd be great" would be better.

I agree, that sounds like the right approach. Although I don't think there's a huge invasion of privacy if a living person's record is opened, it's bad P.R. for FindMyPast if they're making people jump through hoops to prove someone is alive.
Transcribing Essex records for FreeREG.
Current parishes - Burnham, Purleigh, Steeple.
Get in touch if you have any interest in these places!

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #68 on: Saturday 11 February 17 08:53 GMT (UK) »
I would have thought that a approach along the lines of "Not dead? Oh, I'm glad to hear that. Of course we'll close the record. It'll take about a week. In the meantime, could you send me a mail confirming what you've  told me  so my boss knows why I've made the change. If you've got any supporting documentation that'd be great" would be better.

I agree, that sounds like the right approach. Although I don't think there's a huge invasion of privacy if a living person's record is opened, it's bad P.R. for FindMyPast if they're making people jump through hoops to prove someone is alive.

Problem is it is not simply FMPs rules they have been given rules by the NHS and GRO about what records to open and what to redact.
They have been given a "list" of those officially deceased, if the open record is on the deceased list they have to apply rigorous rules to close the record otherwise ID fraud could take place using the claim that the deceased person is still alive today.

People are talking as if ID theft is only about defrauding a living person but most ID theft the government is interested in is about assuming the ID of a deceased person.

Cheers
Guy
http://anguline.co.uk/Framland/index.htm   The site that gives you facts not promises!
http://burial-inscriptions.co.uk Tombstones & Monumental Inscriptions.

As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.

Online Jebber

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #69 on: Saturday 11 February 17 09:09 GMT (UK) »
Whatever our views about records being open or not, with the increasing number of people living longer, a hundred year cut off point is going to become quite pointless.

I know a number of people living a full and active life in their late nineties, so they are quite likely to reach their century. I have been to two funerals recently where the deceased was 102, I had a cousin who lived to 110, and today I am meeting with a very active lady who will be 101 in three weeks time.

These are just people known to me, so only a tiny example.


Jebber
CHOULES All ,  COKER Harwich Essex & Rochester Kent 
COLE Gt. Oakley, & Lt. Oakley, Essex.
DUNCAN Kent
EVERITT Colchester,  Dovercourt & Harwich Essex
GULLIVER/GULLOFER Fifehead Magdalen Dorset
HORSCROFT Kent.
KING Sturminster Newton, Dorset. MONK Odiham Ham.
SCOTT Wrabness, Essex
WILKINS Stour Provost, Dorset.
WICKHAM All in North Essex.
WICKHAM Medway Towns, Kent from 1880
WICKHAM, Ipswich, Suffolk.

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #70 on: Saturday 11 February 17 10:48 GMT (UK) »
I would also add a further note of caution.
If too many people complain about records of living people are being released the government will do as they did with the 1920 Census Act.

When the 1920 Census Act was passed in parliament it stated
“2 (b) having possession of any information which to his knowledge has been disclosed in contravention of this Act, publishes or communicates that information to any other person ;
he shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and shall on conviction be liable to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding two years or to a fine, or to both such imprisonment and fine.”
It also allowed the Registrar General to open any Census taken under it at a time he/she considered relevant.

Due to complaints the 1920 Census Act was amended by the Census (Confidentiality) Act 1991 which made it unlawful to release any Census taken under the 1920 Census Act and removed the Registrar General’s discretion to open such census later.
Amendment to Section 8 1920 Census Act

“(2)If the Registrar-General for England and Wales or the Registrar-General for Scotland (“the Registrars”) or any person who is—
(a)under the control of either of the Registrars; or
(b)a supplier of any services to either of them,
discloses any personal census information to another person, without lawful authority, he shall be guilty of an offence.”

Under the currant law it is illegal to release any Census taken under the 1920 Census Act at any time in the future.

That includes the eagerly awaited 1921 census
Cheers
Guy
http://anguline.co.uk/Framland/index.htm   The site that gives you facts not promises!
http://burial-inscriptions.co.uk Tombstones & Monumental Inscriptions.

As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.

Offline Nick_Ips

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #71 on: Saturday 11 February 17 10:53 GMT (UK) »
I would have thought that a approach along the lines of "Not dead? Oh, I'm glad to hear that. Of course we'll close the record. It'll take about a week. In the meantime, could you send me a mail confirming what you've  told me  so my boss knows why I've made the change. If you've got any supporting documentation that'd be great" would be better.

...which unfortunately is exactly the kind of thing that can help start an identity fraud.

I worked in local government for many years and dealt with many frustrated customers complaining that they had been asked to write in/send proof rather than doing something by phone. But it was drilled in to us that we have no idea who the person on the phone is (however charming and friendly) and to divulge nothing and do nothing relating to personal data simply as a result of a phone call (or email).

Yes, the process may feel insensitive/bureaucratic/pedantic but it is there to protect us. Usually it is people taking shortcuts or being 'helpful' that leads to a data breach, and this kind of approach is a Data Controller's worst nightmare. With personal data the rules have to be established and followed, however frustrating they are to the customer.

For people genuinely worried about vulnerable older people being at risk of financial ID fraud I believe the credit reference/anti-fraud agencies have a facility to put a security flag on someones file to trigger more detailed checks if an application is made in their name. Some of them may charge for this service.

Another thing worth doing is using the Land Registry's free property alert service which lets you know if anyone tries to sell or secure a loan on a property. You don't have to be the owner of the property to monitor it, so you can monitor on behalf of elderly or vulnerable people.
propertyalert.landregistry.gov.uk