Author Topic: St. Francis Xavier Baptismal Records - CARROLL  (Read 7003 times)

Offline NorahEllyn

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Re: St. Francis Xavier Baptismal Records - CARROLL
« Reply #27 on: Saturday 14 January 17 00:58 GMT (UK) »
You are absolutely right.  I was consulting my notes and failed to see that the information I was referencing was the trial of  Isaac Grace, who owned the public-house, 40, Scotland-road.

Thanks to everyone's help today, not only have I found MASSES of Catholic documentation for the family, I've even found that Winifred had another sister I didn't even know existed.  I am so appreciative of your help!

I wish I could substantiate poor Catherine's life in Liverpool, but at least I've moved further on her brother.  This means the world to me.

But I've had enough DUH moments today to either justify getting a new pair of reading glasses or maybe I should just stop spending 14 hours staring at the monitor.   

Norah
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Offline heywood

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Re: St. Francis Xavier Baptismal Records - CARROLL
« Reply #28 on: Saturday 14 January 17 08:28 GMT (UK) »
I suppose with regard to substantiating Catherine's life in Liverpool, you mean the time and records for her entry into the 'Nugent' system.
The 1881 census shows where she was staying for that night only. It could well be that she was lodging along with her aunt all the time  but her mother was close by and as Catherine was also born in that same Court, there seems to be some sort of permanency there.
In fact, I recall children raised by relatives when I was a child.
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Online Blue70

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Re: St. Francis Xavier Baptismal Records - CARROLL
« Reply #29 on: Saturday 14 January 17 16:08 GMT (UK) »
I don't know how much research you've done on checking/searching the Roman Catholic institutional records. In recent times Liverpool Record Office received RC institutional records that were previously with the Liverpool RC Archdiocese. You could contact Liverpool Record Office with Catherine's details:-

http://liverpool.gov.uk/contact-us/service-area/liverpool-record-office/


Blue

Offline NorahEllyn

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Re: St. Francis Xavier Baptismal Records - CARROLL
« Reply #30 on: Saturday 14 January 17 18:18 GMT (UK) »
heywood, you're absolutely right that it wasn't unusual (and still isn't) for family members to raise their sibling's children--and I've diligently tried not to judge Winifred as I have documented as much as I could of her history and see the horror of poverty clasping her life.  Whether she wanted to be a good mother to Catherine or not, I still find it sad that Francis remained with Winifred throughout her life, yet Catherine doesn't even seem to have been baptized (though that baptismal certificate might still be out there somewhere).  I suppose it's possible Philip Clarke didn't care for Catherine and it was easier to keep her at arms length (he was, after all, described as a "dangerous character" and his autopsy revealed he was a strong, muscular man). 

But, yes, there's no way to determine the true situation until I can find the records of Catherine's intake into the Nugent care system as that's all I have as documented proof of everything.  Until I have to piece things together and rely somewhat on supposition.

The only absolutes I have are from the time Catherine was sent to Canada and bits of that are still a mystery.  My grandmother, who Catherine died giving birth to in 1906, had always been told that Catherine escaped from an orphanage in Maine.  Only once I found Catherine's marriage certificate, and the 1901 Canadian census could I finally piece it all together.

I didn't even know where she was buried.  With some serious begging, I finally found her through a sextant's record buried in an unmarked grave in a plot owned by her brother-in-law at the local Methodist church in Kazabazua, Quebec.  I think the loss of his wife, father and baby son in 2 years period of time was too much for my great-grandfather and he couldn't recover.

The sad life of Catherine continued even after her death:  overwhelmed, her husband sent his children, all six of them, to his sister and ran away.  It wasn't until his sister also died in childbirth that my grandmother's older sister escaped from what my grandmother called her "mean and cruel" uncle with my grandmother that my grandmother had a basic, stable home.  Even then her sister raised her only until the authorities insisted her father retrieve her through threats of placing her in an institution.  From then on her life was that of a housekeeper and cook and my grandmother never went back to school.  She only ever received a 3rd-grade education.  It's really been a very sad multi-generational story. 

I wish my grandmother had lived long enough, though, for me to share with her the meager portions of her mother's life I have found.  All she ever had was the photo I have here on my profile--a lovely woman with sad eyes very much like mine--who looked at me from a silver frame on my grandmother's nightstand all my life.  It's kind of an obsession now--to really find and understand Catherine--and that's why after 28 years I'm still trying to get those bits and pieces and I'm so appreciative of anyone, like you and Blue, who offer to help.


Blue, THANK you, I will definitely contact them.  I've tried everything to find the records for the Nugent system, even taking the archivist out to lunch when I flew to England 12 years ago. She did a hunt on what she had but NOTHING could be found.  I keep hoping though--you just never know.

Thank you both!!!
Norah
This information is Crown Copyright, from "http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk"

Always searching for:
Yoell,Kierzek,Starner,Shaw,Paszek,Harrison,Abrahams,Cohen,Zybala,Krawczyk,Moskalska,Laughead,Westall


Offline heywood

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Re: St. Francis Xavier Baptismal Records - CARROLL
« Reply #31 on: Saturday 14 January 17 18:44 GMT (UK) »
Norah,
I really do sympathise with you. Poor Catherine's life continuing to be marked with sadness makes it worse. However, Winifred might well have tried to be a good mother for that brief time we don't know.
We still see how a mother might put the man before the children - again we do not know.
I do hope you can find something out from Blue's suggestion.

All good wishes
Heywood
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Offline NorahEllyn

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Re: St. Francis Xavier Baptismal Records - CARROLL
« Reply #32 on: Saturday 14 January 17 19:17 GMT (UK) »
Thanks heywood.  Isn't it funny how the events of one human being can affect so many even after they're gone?

AND in the meantime, out of the blue (no pun intended), I received information that the LAC (Library and Archives of Canada) have SIX PAGES of information on the BHC Catherine Carroll who was sent via the Liverpool Catholic Children's Protection Society which they can digitize and send to me in 10 days!!!!!  Catherine WAS originally placed in Ottawa and I'm absolutely certain now I'm on the right track there.  Really excited.

I am so crossing my fingers.

Thanks so much for your help,
Norah
This information is Crown Copyright, from "http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk"

Always searching for:
Yoell,Kierzek,Starner,Shaw,Paszek,Harrison,Abrahams,Cohen,Zybala,Krawczyk,Moskalska,Laughead,Westall

Offline heywood

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Re: St. Francis Xavier Baptismal Records - CARROLL
« Reply #33 on: Saturday 14 January 17 19:28 GMT (UK) »
Oh please post if there is anything to share. Fingers crossed for you.  :)
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk