Temperature and Weather Records for Morningside, Edinburgh 1930

[Forfarian]

Does not the cause of death as "Apparently drowning" with the addition of "Felo de se" mean that this MD suspected suicide?

Yes. But the RCE doesn't repeat it.

[Ruskie]

I have only ever seen a couple of RCEs and know very little about them, hence my question/s. 

Is it unusual for the cause of death on an RCE to differ from what the MD, who would have viewed the body, determined the cause of death to be?

[Forfarian]

I have only ever seen a couple of RCEs and know very little about them, hence my question/s. 
Is it unusual for the cause of death on an RCE to differ from what the MD, who would have viewed the body, determined the cause of death to be?

Not usually, but sometimes it varies slightly.

However in this case the cause of death is drowning; both the certificate and the RCE agree on this. Suicide isn't the cause of death, though it could be that the death was self-inflicted.

Note that the MD who is named in the RCE is the same one who is named in the death certificate.

My guess (and it is only a guess) is that the MD was reminded that saying 'felo de se' involved making an assumption about how she came to be in the burn in the first place, and in the absence of any corroborative evidence to support the idea that it was suicide it was not appropriate to make that assumption.

[janwbay]

Thanks again everyone for your input and suggestions, and for the weather records trystan.

You are all making me think now.   The idea that she maybe was visiting someone in Greenbank and was swept down the burn is an idea worth pursuing. 

As to the buses or trams, the route may be different to what it was in 1930, so I don't really know where she would have got off of the vehicle.

The death certificate says she was seen at 11pm the  previous night (27th) but not where she was seen.  I wouldn't think that if it was a freezing night, she would walk all the way from the city centre.  I imagine she would have got a bus or tram, or perhaps she got a lift or a taxi.  Actually, that thought had never occurred to me before.

Does anyone know where I could get more local information.  When I googled the Braid Burn, it says that the burn is prone to flooding.  Could it have been flooded that night?  Though very cold that night, would it have been icy and slippy? Can you tell me which newspaper might have reported on the inquest by the Procurator Fiscal.  I have tried the Scotsman online records but don't know what else to try?

As to the cause of death, the Death Certificate was issued on the 30th January 1930 and suicide was suspected.  After the inquiry was carried out, the Procurator fiscal decided that it was drowning but didn't say suicide. I don't really know if it is usual for the RCE to differ from the death certificate Ruskie.   I'd love to know what evidence was said in the inquiry.   I don't know if there was a post mortem Forfarian.  How do we know she wasn't thrown into the burn?  Surely it would have been reported somewhere?  What newspaper would you suggest Rosinish?

We have been to the area and looked at maps.  We believe that the only place where she could have been found in the Braid Burn, east of Braid Road, is within the grounds of the country park.  The burn then goes under the road, to the west side of  Braid Road.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be much appreciated.

[Ruskie]

I have only ever seen a couple of RCEs and know very little about them, hence my question/s. 
Is it unusual for the cause of death on an RCE to differ from what the MD, who would have viewed the body, determined the cause of death to be?

Not usually, but sometimes it varies slightly.

However in this case the cause of death is drowning; both the certificate and the RCE agree on this. Suicide isn't the cause of death, though it could be that it was the consequence of suicide.

Note that the MD who is named in the RCE is the same one who is named in the death certificate.

Thank you Forfarian - It's very interesting. (I had not noticed it was the same MD on both documents)

[Millmoor]

Hi

 I note that you are not in Edinburgh. If you were I would suggest a visit to the Scottish Library in Edinburgh Central Library on George IV Bridge. Directly over the road is the National Library of Scotland. Newspaper wise apart from the Scotsman there is the Edinburgh Evening News (I note that its 1930 editions are not yet part of the British Newspaper Archive) and the now defunct Evening Dispatch.

The Edinburgh suburban railway line will have been in operation in 1930 - just another transport option to consider. Morningside Station was the nearest station.

William

[Forfarian]

As to the buses or trams, the route may be different to what it was in 1930, so I don't really know where she would have got off of the vehicle.

It was probably along the main road, that is, Comiston Road, the same as it is today.

I wouldn't think that if it was a freezing night, she would walk all the way from the city centre.

See above. People did walk more then that we do now.

When I googled the Braid Burn, it says that the burn is prone to flooding.  Could it have been flooded that night?  Though very cold that night, would it have been icy and slippy?

Possibly yes to both questions.

Can you tell me which newspaper might have reported on the inquest by the Procurator Fiscal.

See my earlier reply. There could not have been an inquest. There is no such thing as an inquest in Scots Law. Please try to forget the word 'inquest' altogether in relation to this incident.

I have tried the Scotsman online records but don't know what else to try?

The only other Edinburgh paper that springs to mind is the Edinburgh Evening News.

I don't really know if it is usual for the RCE to differ from the death certificate.

The RCE did not differ from the death certificate. They both gave the cause of death as drowning.

I'd love to know what evidence was said in the inquiry.

There may not have been any court proceedings. If the Procurator Fiscal did not have any evidence that there was any reason to think it was other than accidental, the only record could be the papers in the Fiscal's files.

I don't know if there was a post mortem.

If the doctor was satisifed that the cause of death was drowing, and there was no reason to suspect anything else, there would probably not have been a full post-mortem.

  How do we know she wasn't thrown into the burn?

You don't. What you do know is that the relevant officer of the law, i.e. the Procurator Fiscal, saw no evidence to suggest it was anything other than an accident.

Surely it would have been reported somewhere?

Not necessarily. An unfortunate accident to an obscure middle-aged spinster might not have interested the papers.

We have been to the area and looked at maps.  We believe that the only place where she could have been found in the Braid Burn, east of Braid Road, is within the grounds of the country park.

Yes. See my earlier reply.

The burn then goes under the road, to the west side of  Braid Road.

No. Other way round. The burn rises in the Pentland Hills, flows north through the Braidburn Valley, under Comiston Road, then eastwards under Braid Road and through the Hermitage of Braid (country park). The it goes under the Cameron Toll Shopping Centre (which has been known to be flooded; I well remember the area being under a couple of feet of water one July in the 1980s) then round to the north of Arthur's Seat to enter the sea at Portobello.

[janwbay]

Thanks for your replies Forfarian, Millmoor, Ruskie, Trystan, Rosinish.  I realise that there are no inquests in Scotland.  Can you tell me the correct term to use please? 

I will try to get  up to Edinburgh and search the Evening News and the Evening Dispatch if possible.

Millmoor, I will have a look as to where the station in Morningside is  in relation to where she was found.  Thanks.

The site at present has a wall separating it from the pavement, but that may not have been there in January 1930.

[Ruskie]

Do you have any family members still living who may have heard tales of her misadventure?

Any family rumours perhaps?

Her last sighting at 11pm is quite late for her to be out alone on a cold night.