Author Topic: Am I of (proveable) royal descent?  (Read 16591 times)

Offline TheNineteenth

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Am I of (proveable) royal descent?
« on: Friday 09 December 16 11:07 GMT (UK) »
I post this for your delectation and hope that someone will try and challenge it (and that I can successfully defend it!). I know I would if I saw someone saying it, but anyway - here are my three direct lines of descent from Henry II, King John, and King John again. Let me know if I need to rethink, or if you spot a massive flaw that needs sorting!

I just think this needs putting to the test of some rigour. So here goes - challenge it all you like!

My Great Grandma was Emma Moore, born Waterloo, Liverpool in 1874. Died Seaforth 1955.
Her mother was a Harriet Amelia Cooper, born 1844 in Lane End, Stafford. Died Waterloo(?) 1923.
Her mother was a Frances Robinson from Essex, born there 1810.
Her mother was a Mary Ann Tabrum, born at Aveley, Essex 1783.
Her father was Arthur Tabrum, born 1758 at Bocking.
His mother was Mary Walford, born at Bocking in 1723.
Her father was William Walford, born at Bocking in 1700.
His mother, Jane Disbrowe, was born around 1675.
Her father was Valentine Disbrowe, born at Huntingdon around 1643.
His mother was Jane Cromwell (sister to Oliver), born at Huntingdom 1606.
Her mother was Elizabeth Steward, who lived between around 1564 and 1654.
Her father appears to be Sir William Steward, who died in 1594.
His father appears to be Nicholas Steward, who lived at Ely, having received a lease of the rectory there in 1548 from his brother, the Dean.
His mother was Cecilia Baskerville, born around 1470 of Eardisley, Hereford.
Her father was John Baskerville, c 1438 Eardisley.

Now my line splits into three.

Line One:
John's father was Sir John Baskerville, a knight born in February 1408 at Eardisley. He died December 1455.
His father was another John Baskerville (1387-1415) of Hereford.
His mother was Joan Everingham of Laxton, Nottingham.
Her father was William de Everingham, born around 1333 at Laxton, died around August 1370.
His mother was Joan Deiville of Egmanton, Nottingham (1315-1377).
Her father was John Deiville (1276-1325/6) of Egmanton
His mother was Maud Audley (c1260 of Audley, Stafford)
Her mother was Ella Longespee (1228-1299) of Audley
Her father was Sir William Longespee (1212-1250).
His father was William Longespee, 3rd Earl of Salisbury (1176-1226)
He was an illegitimate son of Henry II.

Line Two:
Sir John Baskerville's mother was Jane Brugge (1389) of Bridge Sollers, Hereford.
Her father was Sir John Brugge, a knight of Staunton Upon Wye (1368-1436)
His mother was Isabel de Grandison (1340 of Ashperton, Hereford)
Her mother was Blanche de Mortimer, Viscountess of Grandison (1310-1347) of Wigmore.
Her father was Roger Mortimer, Earl of March, born at Netherwood, Thornbury (1287-1330)
His father was Edmund Mortimer, a Baron. Born and died at Wigmore and lived 1252-1303.
His father was Roger Mortimer, another Baron. Born at Radnor, Wales in 1231.
His mother was Gwladys, daughter of Llewllyn of Wales (1205-1251).
Her mother was Joan Plantagenet.
And her father was King John.

Line Three:

Sir John Baskerville's wife was ELizabeth Touchet (1404 Heleigh, Stafford)
Her father was John Tuchet, 4th Baron of Audley
His father was Sir John Tuchet
His mother was Joan Audley (1331-1393)
His mother was Joan Mortimer (b. 1312)
And then the line rejoins the previous one, with the father being Roger Mortimer (1287-1330).

Offline jim1

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Re: Am I of (proveable) royal descent?
« Reply #1 on: Friday 09 December 16 11:35 GMT (UK) »
Quote
His mother was Jane Cromwell (sister to Oliver), born at Huntingdom 1606.
If you can positively prove up to this lady using your own research you're on your way.
The next 3 look a bit murky.
Quote
Her mother was Elizabeth Steward, who lived between around 1564 and 1654.
Her father appears to be Sir William Steward, who died in 1594.
His father appears to be Nicholas Steward
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline Vance Mead

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Re: Am I of (proveable) royal descent?
« Reply #2 on: Friday 09 December 16 11:42 GMT (UK) »
His mother was Mary Walford, born at Bocking in 1723.
Her mother, Jane Disbrowe, was born around 1675.

This gap seems quite long. Jane Disbrowe would have been 48 - not impossible, but somewhat unlikely.
Mead - Herts, Bucks, Essex
Pontifex - Bucks
Goldhurst - London, Middx, Herts
Kellogg/Kelhog - Essex, Cambs

Offline TheNineteenth

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Re: Am I of (proveable) royal descent?
« Reply #3 on: Friday 09 December 16 11:51 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Jim.

Yes, the Stewards are quite murky. There's a wealth of research on them, but often it's contradictory. Some of it leads straight to the Kingly types, so I deliberately chose to focus on the research that suggested less fanciful origins.

As for:

Her father was Arthur Tabrum, born 1758 at Bocking.
His mother was Mary Walford, born at Bocking in 1723.
Her father was William Walford, born at Bocking in 1700.
His mother, Jane Disbrowe, was born around 1675.
Her father was Valentine Disbrowe, born at Huntingdon around 1643.
His mother was Jane Cromwell (sister to Oliver), born at Huntingdom 1606.

Well, I am definitely a direct descendant of this Arthur, and have "proved" the line as far back as William Walford. To go further however, we have to take the text linked to below to see that William was one of the seven confirmed children of John Walford, “a wealthy clothier in Essex” and Jane Disbrowe, daughter of Valentine Disbrowe as mentioned in the text. John and Jane did marry at Bocking in 1698.

Further into the text we see that John Walford was also of Bocking origins, being christened there in March 1675, and Jane was likely from there too, being born around 1678 (as her father Valentine was stated to be “of Bocking”, although he had been born at Huntingdon in Cambridgeshire). Jane died in 1715.

Valentine Disbrowe’s parents were apparently John and Jane Disbrowe.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WZVCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA291&lpg=PA291&dq=%22arthur+tabrum%22&source=bl&ots=UrwlaN0seI&sig=H_xuU329AaaT9rt79EPtm6AOBRA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjMpqmXhOfQAhXJI8AKHTZKCKwQ6AEILzAF#v=onepage&q=%22arthur%20tabrum%22&f=false



Offline TheNineteenth

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Re: Am I of (proveable) royal descent?
« Reply #4 on: Friday 09 December 16 11:52 GMT (UK) »
Vance, absolutely. I managed to leave a line out of the report! Please find missing William Walford below. And in the edited original!

His mother was Mary Walford, born at Bocking in 1723.
Her father was William Walford, born at Bocking in 1700.
His mother, Jane Disbrowe, was born around 1675.

Offline jim1

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Re: Am I of (proveable) royal descent?
« Reply #5 on: Friday 09 December 16 12:05 GMT (UK) »
The book by Mark Noble wasn't very well received:
In 1784 Noble produced a compilation "Memoirs of the Protectoral House of Cromwell" 2 vols. London, 1784 (2nd edit., "with improvements", 1787); it contains many errors.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline Andrew Tarr

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Re: Am I of (proveable) royal descent?
« Reply #6 on: Friday 09 December 16 13:00 GMT (UK) »
I suppose one factor which may tend to draw anyone into a 'royal' pedigree is that in earlier centuries the only recorded trees belonged to the upper, or educated (clerical) classes.  Ordinary folk - like those I descend from - probably kept no records, or if they did they have likely disappeared.  So if you find an apparent attachment that is where it may lead.

But as it is usually hard to prove a negative hypothesis, you may be able to blag almost anyone ....  :)
Tarr, Tydeman, Liversidge, Bartlett, Young

Offline Vance Mead

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Re: Am I of (proveable) royal descent?
« Reply #7 on: Friday 09 December 16 13:32 GMT (UK) »
Andrew, It's true that it's more difficult to trace ordinary people, but not impossible. Before the beginning of parish records, there are lay subsidy rolls in the 1520s, muster rolls in the 1520s, legal records such as Common Pleas and King's Bench going back to the 13th century, the Poll taxes of 1377, 1379 and 1381, and manorial records. All of these contain records of 'the middling sort of people' but not the poorest.

Some of these are online but for the most part not indexed or transcribed (legal records), and some have been published by country record societies.
Mead - Herts, Bucks, Essex
Pontifex - Bucks
Goldhurst - London, Middx, Herts
Kellogg/Kelhog - Essex, Cambs

Offline Billyblue

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Re: Am I of (proveable) royal descent?
« Reply #8 on: Friday 09 December 16 14:59 GMT (UK) »
Why do you want to be descended from royalty, anyhow?
It won't get you a better pension or seat on the bus.

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