Help with the Wicken family of Westerham late 1700s to 1800s

[jonwicken]

My great, great grandfather John Charles Turtle was born in Lambeth, Surrey, as the illegitimate son of Emily Percival Turtle. The father is nameless on his birth certificate.

Two years later in 1852, Emily married James Wicken in Bethnal Green, Middlesex, and John Charles Turtle became known as John Charles Wicken.

Given the two year gap between his birth and their marriage, I assume John was not James' biological son, but John must have thought of him as such as he gave his first born son the name James.

I am therefore interested in the Wicken family as it is my name and so despite the non genetic connection I would like to fill in some gaps I have with the family.

I am therefore hoping someone may be able to please help me with the the three areas below: 

1. Thomas Wicken (c1775/6-1848) and his wife Mary (c1769/70-1844) had several children baptised in Westerham between 1798 and 1813. However I have been unable to find their origins or marriage.

A Thomas Wicken married a Mary Reed in Tenterten in 1800 but they had their own set of children baptised there so are presumably not this couple.

The 1841 census states they were not born in Kent so I don't have anything else to go on.

2. I would like to know which of their children survived to adulthood and so for this I need to see the Westerham burials which are not online.

I would also like to see the same for their grandchildren. I therefore wondered if anyone has access to the burials for Westerham to do a Wicken check please.

3. John Wicken married Charlotte Sales at Westerham in 1821 and had children from 1821 to 1843. However on the 1851 census there is a Phoebe Wicken aged 2 and a Mary Ann Wicken aged 1 who are listed as his daughters.

Now they can't be Charlotte's children as she would be too old and on the 1861 census Phoebe is listed as John' granddaughter. Also, John and Charlotte also already had a daughter named Phoebe born in 1824 who married in 1845.

I cannot find births or baptisms for either girl (Phoebe or Mary Ann) in the late 1840s/early 1850s and Mary Ann I can only find in the 1851 census and no death for her either.

Phoebe married George Braybrook in Stepney, Middlesex, in 1878 and on this her father is listed as John Wicken. I am therefore very confused!

I suspect Phoebe and Mary Ann were perhaps illegitimate grandchildren but i have no ideas whose or how to prove or disprove it.

If anyone has a moment to have a look at any of these queries I would be most grateful.

Thank you,
Jon

[crisane]

There is a Mary Ann and a Phoebe on the 1851 census with a John and Charlotte so are there two families wirh daughters Mary Ann and Phoebe born same time or were thegirls staying with their grandparents but got listed with their Mum and Dad's entry as well.
HO107 Piece 1613 Folio 527 Page 17
Westerham, Kent
John Wicken  41 Blacksmith
 Charlotte Wicken  41
 William Wicken  13
 Emma Wicken  11
 Charlotte Wicken  8
 Phebe Wicken  2 Westerham, Kent
 Mary Ann Wicken  1
All born Westerham, Kent

ancestry is only bringing this one up for a Mary Ann Wicken born c1851

[crisane]

I wonder if this one could be Mary Ann if the enumerator recorded 1 year instead of 1month. Sevenoaks includes Westerham
FreeBMD
Mary Ann Wickens
Registered June  1/4 1851
Registration district = Sevenoaks Kent
Vol 5 Page 464

On the new GRO index mother's maiden name Tutheridge. but I can't see a Tutheridge marriage (or a similar name) to a John Wicken/s

[keyboard86]

Hi there is also a Female Wicken March qtr 1849 Sevenoaks v5 page 500 the GRO index shows no mothers maiden name.

Keyboard86

[crisane]

I think you can forget the 1851 birth reg for Mary Ann because this is possibly the birth reg for Charlotte Wicken born c1843 in the 1851 census
Charlotte Wicken    mmn Sales   
Dec 1/4 1843  Sevenoaks Union   Vol 5 page 411

There are also birth registrations for Emma and William (on the 1851 census) mmn Sales but none for Mary Ann and Phoebe with or without mmn Sales

Hi keyboard. thanks for that 1849 birth reg.

[jonwicken]

Thanks very much for the replies.  It is indeed John and Charlotte Wicken,  not James. This was a typing error I have now corrected so thanks for pointing it out.

I had missed the 1849 finale Wicken birth so I would assume that is indeed Phoebe.  Looks like I will need to order that certificate to see who the mother was.

I will also check out the Mary Ann birth you found.

Thanks again,  everyone.

Jon

[crisane]

Hello
Can you give us the piece, book, folio and page references for the 1841 census so I can take a look at Thomas and Mary's entry.

The Thomas and Mary having children in Tenterten are still there in the 1861 census so definitely not your Thomas and Mary as you say yours died 1848 and 1844.

[jonwicken]

Hi thanks very much. It is:

Piece: 485
Book: 13
Folio:   20
Page Number: 3

And the image is attached.

Their death ages on the new GRO index shows they Thomas was born c1775/6 and died 1848 and Mary who died in 1844 was born c1769/70.

Based on these ages I assume he must have been 21 when they married and as they had a daughter baptised in 1798, their marriage presumably took place c1797.

There were definitely two Thomas and Mary Wickens, which make things confusing indeed. The other couple alive in later census in Tenterten.

There is a Fanny Wicken who married John Lockyer at Westerham in 1824. I wondered if she was an earlier daughter born elsewhere than Westerham before 1798.

However it appears from the census and baptism entries that she is probably one of the Fanny Wickens born in Rotherfield, Sussex, in 1805 or 1807.

If you are able to crack anything here, I would be most appreciative.

Thanks,
Jon

[jonwicken]

Forgot the image.... Sorry!