Author Topic: Eighth Army abbreviations  (Read 22534 times)

Offline MaxD

  • Deceased † Rest In Peace
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • ********
  • Posts: 8,056
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Eighth Army abbreviations
« Reply #27 on: Monday 05 December 16 15:05 GMT (UK) »
I wanted to re-look at the last few lines of "second half".  We can see he changes theatre twice, from MEF to BNAF while remaining in the same unit (563) and then from BNAF to CMF while remaining in the same (new) unit  My assessment is that he went from Egypt to Italy in Aug 43.  I base this on the entry for an embarkation and then the later note of the entitlement to the Africa Star (ie you've just left Africa, here's your gong). (The 8th Army clasp was not instituted untillater, hence the later entry).
But again there is a sheet missing.  He was overseas until Jan 1946 and demobbed in Apr 46 but "second half" ends in Sep 45 so I'd prefer not to complete the picture without the last (?) sheet.

Convoys  The dates quoted for the putative convoy don't stack up with his record!  He embarked on 29 MAY 1942.  cpercival could perhaps tell us if this still cross checks with WS18?? 

maxD

Caveat - While I am pretty confident of my reading of the facts, without the war diaries of the units concerned, or other definitive proof such as the ORBAT of the 8th Army at the relevant times, I would not stand in front of a judge with this assessment of when his time in Italy began.  Frustratingly, both the RLC and the RA Museums are not taking research queries at the moment, they would have been able to help with unit moves.
I am Zoe Northeast, granddaughter of Maximilian Double.
 
It is with great difficulty I share with you that in the early hours of 07 August 2021, Maximilian passed away unexpectedly but peacefully.

With deep sadness,
Zoe



Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

Offline ScouseBoy

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,142
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Eighth Army abbreviations
« Reply #28 on: Monday 05 December 16 15:22 GMT (UK) »
Service in North Africa  with the British First  Army  may qualify for   The First Army clasp   to the Africa Star  depending on dates.

In the period between Victory in Europe  and the surrender  of Japan, provisional  contingency   plans were  being made  for men and women in the Middle East  to "possibly"   be transferred to the Far East  theatre
Nursall   ~    Buckinghamshire
Avies ~   Norwich

Offline cpercival

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Eighth Army abbreviations
« Reply #29 on: Monday 05 December 16 15:34 GMT (UK) »
Sorry I was going by the sailing date given as 5 April.  WS 19P sailed UK 31 May (the origin of the suffix P is unknown).  The troops embarked were the 44 Infantry division.  Embarkation was spread over six ships in Liverpool, Glasgow and the Clyde anchorages from 26 to 30th May.  At Liverpool 132 Brigade HQ with 4Bn Royal West Kents and 2Bn The Buffs boarded Laconia which anchored in the river on 29th.

C

Offline ScouseBoy

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,142
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Eighth Army abbreviations
« Reply #30 on: Monday 05 December 16 15:38 GMT (UK) »
The  addition of "P"    could denote  that part of the convoy   branched off  at  some point.     Possible   that P   may stand for "Persia"   for example? 

Added     Google search  on WS  convoys   gives  a fund of detail
Nursall   ~    Buckinghamshire
Avies ~   Norwich


Offline cpercival

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Eighth Army abbreviations
« Reply #31 on: Monday 05 December 16 15:48 GMT (UK) »
WS 19, 19W, 19P and 19Y were all carrying troops bound for Suez as reinforcements which were desperately needed at that time.  the established routine was to trans ship at Durban to larger ships that ran the Durban to Suez shuttle while the original vessels turned around to be redeployed on other convoys.

C

Offline MaxD

  • Deceased † Rest In Peace
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • ********
  • Posts: 8,056
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Eighth Army abbreviations
« Reply #32 on: Monday 05 December 16 15:52 GMT (UK) »
Service in North Africa  with the British First  Army  may qualify for   The First Army clasp   to the Africa Star  depending on dates.

In the period between Victory in Europe  and the surrender  of Japan, provisional  contingency   plans were  being made  for men and women in the Middle East  to "possibly"   be transferred to the Far East  theatre

True but totally irrelevant to this man's service. His units were 8th Army so he got the 8th Army clasp and he did not serve in the far East - please read his records.
I am Zoe Northeast, granddaughter of Maximilian Double.
 
It is with great difficulty I share with you that in the early hours of 07 August 2021, Maximilian passed away unexpectedly but peacefully.

With deep sadness,
Zoe



Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

Offline ScouseBoy

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,142
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Eighth Army abbreviations
« Reply #33 on: Monday 05 December 16 15:53 GMT (UK) »
Some of the WS   convoys  consisted  of U.S. Navy  troop ships    with USN   escorts.

Some  convoys  took the troops  to Halifax Nova Scotia   were they transferred to  other ships.
Nursall   ~    Buckinghamshire
Avies ~   Norwich

Offline seaweed

  • Deceased † Rest In Peace
  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,363
  • I'll see you one day in Fiddlers Green.
    • View Profile
Re: Eighth Army abbreviations
« Reply #34 on: Monday 05 December 16 16:03 GMT (UK) »
Convoy WS 19P sailed on 31/May 1942-1 June/42  from various west coast ports.and seems the likely contender The OP would be advised to read pages 301 to 311 of the book mentioned by C Percival.
Regarding Army War Diaries.
It is my understanding  that by and large they did not mention an individual ship by name, usually by a coded number, which changed after every voyage. Nor do the vessels logbooks mention which Army/Air Force units were embarked. I will stand correction on this point but personal experience concurs with this statement.
Unless you have personal records, diaries, recollections official regimental histories written post war it is always difficult to tie down an individual person sailing on a particular ship.
Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld

RIP Roger 10 August 2022

Offline cpercival

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Eighth Army abbreviations
« Reply #35 on: Monday 05 December 16 16:31 GMT (UK) »
I'm sure war diaries  varied in the degree of information contained.  My suggestion was based on the war diary of 42RTR in which my father served and the relevant entry contains the information - April 22 1941 Personnel are taken aboard HMT F4 by sea transport tender at 0830 hrs.  HMT F4 is the British India Steam Company's S.S. Aronda.  Agreed not all war diaries may be as specific but such information was certainly contained in some.

C