Author Topic: Culhane in Glasgow  (Read 2218 times)

Offline slewi4

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Culhane in Glasgow
« on: Saturday 05 November 16 01:33 GMT (UK) »
I am a complete beginner to Scottish research, and would like some guidance on where to search:

I have recently found an Australian newspaper report of the death in Ireland of the mother of a local (Australian) woman. The article mentions 3 of her children in Australia, one son (presumably also in Ireland), and 6 children in Glasgow, Scotland.

Unfortunately, I don't know the names or ages of the children in Glasgow.  :-\

What I do know is that their parent's names are James CULHANE and Catherine nee MURPHY from Aradlahon (or similar spelling), Limerick Ireland. James died pre 1901, and Catherine's death was reported in the Australian newspaper 28 Mar 1914. She was reported to be 96yrs old at the time of her death in Limerick, so of childbearing age between about 1834 and 1863. The 3 children in Australia were John (born circa 1845), Bridget (born 24 Jan 1856, baptised RC Kildimo district), and Catherine (born circa 1859). The other son mentioned is "Mr P Culhane" - very likely to be Patrick.

From the searches I have done so far, I haven't been able to identify any potential sons in Glasgow, and it seems that there aren't any Scottish records that are searchable by parent's names. Can anyone suggest any way forward?

Thanks
Sandra
England: Brown Kingscliffe NTH, Ellis Balsall WAR, Lewis Hereford HEF, Oliver Morpeth NBL, Wall Coventry/Balsall WAR, Watkins Eardisley/Clifford HEF
Ireland: Culhane Limerick; Doolan Clare
Wales: Lewis BRE/DEN, Jones Eglwysbach DEN

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Culhane in Glasgow
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 05 November 16 10:18 GMT (UK) »
At your stage, there is really only one port of call, and that is Scotland's People (SP).

I think if I were you I would go to www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, put Culhane in the search box on the home page, and see what turns up. You can look at the indexes for free, but to view the original documents you need to buy credits.

Unfortunately there aren't nearly enough Culhanes to account for six children in Glasgow, so I suspect that at least some of them must have spelled their names in other ways, which makes life awkward. Or they might have retired home to Ireland.

I tried using c*lh*n*, and got a lot more results. I looked at the deaths, and there were 109. Restricting it to people who died after 1914, and who were aged at least 40, reduced it to 33, which is manageable. You can then go through the list and eliminate any who are too young to be Catherine's children, and take a look at the rest.

Catherine's own death certificate is available to view at https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/ but unlike Scottish death certificates, Irish ones don't usually tell you the names of the deceased person's father, mother and spouse(s). She died on 25 January 1914 in Rathkeale Workhouse. Her age is given as 91, and she was from Ballinacarriga (I think - it's hard to read). There are also 8 deaths of James Culhanes registered in Rathkeale, but the images of 7 of them are not yet available online. The 8th one was registered by his wife, whose name was Ellen. I can't find Catherine in the 1911 census at http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/.

There are 42 marriages of Culhanes registered in Rathkeale - you might like to have a look through those (though the images of the earlier ones are not yet available) to see if any could be the children of James and Catherine, and then check the Scottish census to see if any of them moved to Scotland after marrying.

Hope this helps. Any questions, just ask.

PS I just took a look at the article in the Queensland Times. I wonder whether it actually means that there is just one son in Glasgow, who has six children? I took a look at the death certificate of Patrick Culhane, who died in Greenock in 1908 aged 67, and he is definitely the son of James Culhane and Catherine Murphy. His wife Helen (nee Allan) died in 1909.

The 1901 census lists Patrick Culhane, 59; Helena, 58; Maggie, 26; John, 23, Helen, 21; and William, 18. You can view the original of this, which will tell you their occupations and birthplaces.

There are births of Ellen, 1871; Margaret, 1874; John, 1877; Helen, 1879; and William, 1882, all in Greenock. Ellen died in Greenock in 1874, and there is also a death of James, aged 17, in Greenock in 1887. So it looks as if the family came from Ireland after the birth of John in 1869/70 and before the birth of Ellen in 1871.

Or maybe not. In the 1881 census they are listed as Culhean. Patrick, 40; Helen, 38; James, 12; Mary 16; Catherine, 14; Margaret, 7; John, 4; Helena, 2. Parents born in Limerick, first three children in Port Glasgow, the others in Greenock.

The IGI at www.familysearch.org gives birth dates for Mary (Culhene), 11 March 1865; Catherine (Colhane), 8 March 1867; James, 25 February 1869; Ellen, 14 May 1871; Margaret, 21 January 1874. The IGI stops at 1874 so John, Helen and William aren't included. That's a total of 8 children, less two who died, leaving 6 alive.

The birth certificates of the children will tell you the date and place of their parents' marriage.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline MonicaL

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Re: Culhane in Glasgow
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 05 November 16 12:15 GMT (UK) »
Possibly the same couple, marriage in 1839 in Kildimo www.irelandxo.com/ireland/limerick/kildimo/message-board/james-culhane-and-catherine-murphy-married-kildimo

The same person also posted this www.irelandxo.com/ireland/limerick/message-board/culhane-and-murphy-families-limerick Can't be the correct death details for Catherine given what has been discussed here (assuming it is the same couple and not another with the same names).

Sandra, you mention Aradlahon. Maybe a connection to this family tree which is for the couple mentioned above, with some of their children dieing in Queensland? http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/48024283/person/20058058129/facts

Would need to be confirmed and verified really....

Monica

PS: Guessing you have all info re Queensland as the family has come up before on Australian board:
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=353675.0
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Offline Forfarian

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Re: Culhane in Glasgow
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 05 November 16 17:09 GMT (UK) »
Oh dear  :(

Sounds like two couples with the same names.

The Catherine who died in 1883 was 70 so would have been born in 1812/3 and would have been in her mid-20s in 1839.

The one who died in 1914 would have been born in 1822/3 if you believe the death certificate, or 1817/8 if you believe the Queensland Times.

Classic case of 'don't believe anything you find online, unless it's an image of an original document'.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.


Offline slewi4

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Re: Culhane in Glasgow
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 05 November 16 23:02 GMT (UK) »
Thank you all so much.

Yes, I have the Queensland information, and the 1914 death from the Queensland Times is definitely the correct Catherine - the Mrs Doolan of Purga is her daughter Catherine.

Interesting that Patrick died before his mother. Perhaps his siblings in Queensland didn't know he had died, and it may also explain why Catherine senior was in the workhouse rather than living with the one son who stayed in Ireland (as per my original interpretation of the newspaper article).

I have seen the Ancestry tree before, and have tried to verify. Some things matched what I had already found, but others just don't add up e.g. Catherine's youngest son on that tree is James Henry Culhane who died in Queensland in 3 May 1939. There is no death recorded for him in the state, BUT there is one for James Henry Doolan (son of James Doolan and Catherine Culhane) on 2 May 1939 and buried 3 May 1939. So a grandson with a different surname has been assigned as a son.  :-[

The Culhane name originated in Limerick and there were lots of them there. The deaths in Mitchelstown of a couple also name James and Catherine in 1883 & 1884 was a coincidence that seems to have been accepted as proof.

It does seem probable that the article meant that Catherine's son Patrick had 6 children in Glasgow. Thanks to Forfarian for spotting that and pointing me in the right direction.

Regards
Sandra
England: Brown Kingscliffe NTH, Ellis Balsall WAR, Lewis Hereford HEF, Oliver Morpeth NBL, Wall Coventry/Balsall WAR, Watkins Eardisley/Clifford HEF
Ireland: Culhane Limerick; Doolan Clare
Wales: Lewis BRE/DEN, Jones Eglwysbach DEN

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Culhane in Glasgow
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 06 November 16 00:57 GMT (UK) »
Interesting that Patrick died before his mother. Perhaps his siblings in Queensland didn't know he had died, and it may also explain why Catherine senior was in the workhouse rather than living with the one son who stayed in Ireland (as per my original interpretation of the newspaper article).
I think I would interpret the article as saying that Catherine had family in Queensland plus Patrick in Scotland. They are all explicitly named, so if there was another sibling in Ireland why would (s)he not have been named too?

Quote
I have seen the Ancestry tree before, and have tried to verify. Some things matched what I had already found, but others just don't add up
You are doing exactly the right thing, i.e.using an tree you found online as an aid for your own research, and discarding the parts that don't fit the verifiable facts.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline maryderry

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Re: Culhane in Glasgow
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 06 November 16 15:27 GMT (UK) »
You may already have this information.

Date of Marriage:
10-Feb-1839
 
 
Parish / District:
KILDIMO

County:
Co. Limerick


Husband

Wife
Name:
James
Culhane

Catherine
Murphy
Address:



Denomination:
Roman Catholic

Roman Catholic
Occupation:



Age:



Status:





Husband's Father

Wife's Father
Name:

Culhane


Murphy
Address:



Denomination:



Occupation:





Husband's Mother

Wife's Mother
Name:





Address:



Denomination:



Occupation:





Witness 1

Witness 2
Name:
Patrick
Murphy

Patrick
Culhane
Address:






Notes:












Church Baptism
Culhane
Patk.
1839
Co. Limerick

View
Church Baptism
Culhane
John
1842
Co. Limerick

View
Church Baptism
Culhane
Thomas
1845
Co. Limerick

View
Church Baptism
Culhane
Bridget
1856
Co. Limerick

View
Church Baptism
Culhane
Cath.
1859
Co. Limerick

parents. james culhane & cath murphy.
doolin?
quigley- hasson. stewart. lynch. doherty gallagher-derry
mclaughlin-  brennan .moville co. donegal
mctaggart
monaghan

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Culhane in Glasgow
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 06 November 16 19:45 GMT (UK) »
maryderry, just out of curiosity, where did you find the marriage and baptisms?
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline slewi4

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Re: Culhane in Glasgow
« Reply #8 on: Monday 07 November 16 20:58 GMT (UK) »
I think I would interpret the article as saying that Catherine had family in Queensland plus Patrick in Scotland. They are all explicitly named, so if there was another sibling in Ireland why would (s)he not have been named too?[/quote]

I agree, that's why I said my "original" interpretation. Again, thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

I had seen the 1839 marriage, and in the past few days have spent hours going through the images of the baptisms - I didn't know that they were indexed and searchable. Good news is that I found all of the ones that maryderry posted, and some bonus instances of James or Catherine being sponsors.

There are no burials available, but I think that if I keep going forward through the images, I may be able to eliminate some possible deaths for James. If he is a witness at a marriage or sponsor at a baptism after 1866, I can halve my list of possible deaths.

Thanks to all who have helped
Sandra
England: Brown Kingscliffe NTH, Ellis Balsall WAR, Lewis Hereford HEF, Oliver Morpeth NBL, Wall Coventry/Balsall WAR, Watkins Eardisley/Clifford HEF
Ireland: Culhane Limerick; Doolan Clare
Wales: Lewis BRE/DEN, Jones Eglwysbach DEN