Author Topic: Can anyone help me please.  (Read 8648 times)

Offline LordVader

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Re: Can anyone help me please.
« Reply #36 on: Friday 31 August 18 11:26 BST (UK) »
Hello,

The big problem for your William is location. While it could still be possible, there is yet to be presented any real documented evidence that links your William to Takeley.

Milly (Melly as spelt in the baptism) is far from conclusive evidence, she could well be named from her mother's family. Although the same could be said for the two called Milly/Milley daughter's of Philip Fewell of Takeley Street (son of William and Elizabeth), it is hard to ignore the evidence their father is called Philip. So compare the probabilities:
- There are two plausible unique family names in William and Elizabeth's family with a grandson likely named after a grandfather; opposed to:
- only one unique family name with your William and Margaret.

I noticed you accidentally noted your William's age as 21, when I assume you meant he would have been 31 when married for a possible 1737 baptism. Just note that the baptism is not always the birth year, he could have been born say 2 or more years prior. William who married Elizabeth would have been about 24 when married in 1761 at Takeley.

While not impossible for your William, the odds are more in favour of the William who married Elizabeth.

Look at the family trend Philip (who married Ann Judd) was 22, his father John was 26, his father Daniel was 23. Philip's brother Thomas was 24 and Philip's son Philip Jr. was 24.

Looking at the marriages of each William:

- William who married Elizabeth is noted "of Takeley". Also to note a Philemon Fuell was a third witness in their marriage. Philemon is very plausibly William's father Philip.
- William who married Margaret Twin is noted "of Great Waltham" when married in another parish so we can assume that it is more probable that Great Waltham is his native parish or his parents moved there while he was younger.

We can make an educated conclusion Philip and Ann Judd stayed around the Takeley area as evident by their son Philip who was married at Takeley and had children baptised there. Philip (Jr.) is very plausibly the burial in 1819 at Takeley noting an age of 81 years in the register, (+/- take 5 years) a very plausible match to his baptism in 1743. Philip (Jr.)'s son Bentley was buried at Little Canfield in 1830 hinting the family never moved far. Possible burial for Philip husband of Ann Judd at Great Canfield in 1788 where he resided at Great Canfield close to where his grandson Bentley Fewell lived.

I haven't compiled any tree in relation to your William and Margaret since tracing those at Takeley has not yet lead over to the Great Waltham area. I am currently looking into the family of John Fewell and Elizabeth Green of Takeley with their children Philip, Thomas, Elizabeth, William and possibly a son John who married Mary Coe and resided at Great/Little Canfield who is noted with his son John Jr. as labourers in the families baptism/burial documents. Also I am looking into the ancestry of John which looks to correspond with what everybody else is researching up to Robert.

Kind regards,

Jared

Offline findem

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Re: Can anyone help me please.
« Reply #37 on: Sunday 02 September 18 07:02 BST (UK) »
Hi Jared
You mention that “The big problem for your William is location. While it could still be possible, there is yet to be presented any real documented evidence that links your William to Takeley.”
You also state: “- William who married Elizabeth is noted "of Takeley". Also to note a Philemon Fuell was a third witness in their marriage. Philemon is very plausibly William's father Philip.
- William who married Margaret Twin is noted "of Great Waltham" when married in another parish so we can assume that it is more probable that Great Waltham is his native parish or his parents moved there while he was younger.”


Experience tells us that the note on a parish register which states a person is “of this parish” or another parish, all it means is that at the time of the event that person was residing in that parish.  Both the Williams in question could just as easily have been born in other parishes, come to that even in other counties.

I think that it’s well known that sons were very prone to moving some distances away from home for work, even to other counties, as did some daughters.  I even have a female ancestor who came from Nun Monkton in Yorkshire to Gt Waltham in Essex to marry an Essex man in 1766.

It has also been found that some people moved to a parish, (either the Bride’s or Bridegroom’s) staying with friends or relatives so they could claim to be living in the said parish and marry without the need for a licence.

"While not impossible for your William, the odds are more in favour of the William who married Elizabeth.”

Not quite sure what you mean by the above I’ve probably misunderstood, William Fewell and his wife Elizabeth Green were still baptising children at Takeley after William Fuel and Margaret Twin married in 1768 at Felsted so William and Elizabeth can be ruled out of being a direct ancestor of mine, possibly related though.

It appears we are both of the opinion that the John Fewell who married Elizabeth Green “of Takeley” on 3 Jun 1707 at Gt Dunmow by licence is a good candidate as the father of Philip Fuel husband of Anne, incidentally the Rev Mills was of the opinion that it was so.

Whilst not wishing to muddy the waters did you notice the baptism at Takeley of William the son of Thomas and Elizabeth Fewell on 27 Apr 1740?  William and Margaret Fewell did not name any of their children Thomas so I don't think he is in the running to be the husband of Margaret Twinn

Btw sorry for the poor maths not sure how I managed that error.  :-[  :)

I have taken all your comments on board and I will be taking another look at my Fewell families.

Regards.
Concentrating currently on:
Essex: Card, Harris, Stowell, Theobald/Tibbles & Turner.
Norfolk: Beale, Cork & Dalton.
Yorkshire: Oswald Sturdy birth/baptism c1708, Oswald where the devil are you?

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline findem

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Re: Can anyone help me please.
« Reply #38 on: Sunday 02 September 18 07:29 BST (UK) »
Just realised that I haven't mentioned what led me to Philip Fuell and his wife Anne Judd.

Researching my Searles ancestors I got back to Thomas Searles and his wife Sophia, the next step was to find their marriage which gave me the Fuell/Fewell surname.

A search for Sophia led me to William Fewell and his wife Margaret Twin, Sophia being their last child.

Identifying William I well remember for the pain it was, then I came across the family of Philip Fuell and his wife Anne Judd at Takeley, what hit me straight away was the name Millicent and immediately the Melly or Milly of William and Margaret came to mind.  I did see other Millys but none to make me doubt that Milly, sister of Sophia, was named after William's sister Millicent.

Those of us researching the Fewell family back then noted that the second letter was either an e or a badly written i, it was probably meant to be an e, the result of Milly spoken with an Essex accent by the parents.
Concentrating currently on:
Essex: Card, Harris, Stowell, Theobald/Tibbles & Turner.
Norfolk: Beale, Cork & Dalton.
Yorkshire: Oswald Sturdy birth/baptism c1708, Oswald where the devil are you?

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline LordVader

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Re: Can anyone help me please.
« Reply #39 on: Sunday 02 September 18 08:34 BST (UK) »
Hello,

From your comment about people being noted "of this parish", I do agree that it is possible they could have just resided, but it is equally possible it is their native parish.

While tracking families can lead from one place to another, beyond the census this is increasingly difficult and evidence from things like marriage/banns documents were increasingly critical to prove that a person moved several parishes over. If your female ancestor noted the parish where she came from in her marriage, then that is evidence for you to make a link. William who married Margaret only has evidence to say he was from Great Waltham which is even further away from Takeley than Felsted. Born or not, there is still nothing to say directly he was from Takeley only possibly the Milicent name. I note that a lot of the Fewells were Farmers, Agricultural Labouers, etc. so it is possible they moved around a bit, but it not as likely they moved around as much as the mining families in the Durham area who were poached from Colliery to Colliery moving several parishes or County. Farmers I have researched over England in my family were usually more settled.

Consider that a lot of the records are not transcribed yet or will never be due to being lost. A lot of what we do see can be re-written from the originals. Have you extensively searched the registers for Great Waltham and the parishes further south for your William.

About the possibility comment it is meaning that the odds are more stacked in favour of William husband of Elizabeth being the son of Philip Fewell and Ann Judd than William who married Margaret.

I also have looked at the baptism to Thomas and Elizabeth in 1740 and while you can confidently rule this out as your William based on no children by the name Thomas, I can also make the same judgement based on William and Elizabeth not having any children called Thomas. That William is suspected to be the one who married (1) Sarah Harsler  and (2) Elizabeth Greygoose at Great Dunmow. That William had a son called Thomas in 1771.

While I do understand your significance for the name Milly/Milicent being the eureka moment in your research, as mentioned before that is highly circumstantial. There are plenty of other Milicient's living who could namesake their daughter. It could have even been the nurses name. I have in my family tree born in 1840 a Thomas O'Conner William Binns Maddison. While this could have been a clue to the families heritage, the documented family line shows nothing quite that unique. It could well have been the Milkman for all we know.

If the Milicent name is the hook for making your connection to Philip and Ann, then we need to provide evidence to rule out:
- William Fewell married Elizabeth Green at Takeley (marriage noted a third witness Philomon Fuell, who is likely father or brother who could only have been one of the two Philip's that lived in Takeley at that time, considering a third witness is not required it signifies a family importance);
- William who named a son Philip;
- Philip who in turn named two daughters Milly/Milley after his plausible aunt;
- William and his son Philip who lived in the same town/parish as Philip Fewell and Ann Judd.

Have you seen that Jeremiah Fewell who I suspect is the son of Philip and Ann (born in the missing baptisms evident by his burial age given) named two children Philip 1780 and Ann 1774. Jeremiah attended Hatfield Broad Oak the same parish that William and Elizabeth frequented, making a brother connection very likely.

None of the Fewells descended from John Fewell and Elizabeth Green that I have researched has lead me as far East as Felsted let alone South/East to Great Waltham. The furtherest the sons in this family has gone (down to the late 1700's) is Dunmow, Hatfield Broad Oak and Great Canfield, basically a triangle area.

Have you seen on the Essex site that the Samuel, assume son or grandson of your William is noted occupying (assume renting): "Channels etc. in Little Waltham, Springfield and Broomfield in occ. Tho.Beardwell, Dan.Harrington and Sam.Fewel" D/P 220/25/156. It would pay to search for other records of the Waltham areas to see just how long the Fewells could have been there. It is completely possible the Fewell surname in that area derived from another surname based on the localised accents that England had from town to town. For instance researching my Maddison family from Durham I found that the Northumbrians commonly spelt and pronounced it Matthewson. When Matthewsons went down to Durham evidence from census and parish register records showed that it became Maddison and vice versa from Durham to Northumberland. Maddison's generally derived from Stanhope in Durham back to the 1100's and the Matthewsons from a more Scottish ancestry or migration of continental europeans to the UK fixing their father's name.

Kind Regards,

Jared


Offline findem

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Re: Can anyone help me please.
« Reply #40 on: Monday 03 September 18 02:19 BST (UK) »
Hi Jared,

Just a couple of points

"It would pay to search for other records of the Waltham areas to see just how long the Fewells could have been there. It is completely possible the Fewell surname in that area derived from another surname based on the localised accents that England had from town to town."

Myself and other Fewell researchers have checked that area although not with the intention of determining Fewell length of stay in the area, our search was for William the husband of Margaret Twin and some other Fewells.  Without being able to put my hands on my handwritten notes for those searches I can't give any results but I can say from memory no William born or baptised in the appropriate period was found in those areas.

" If your female ancestor noted the parish where she came from in her marriage, then that is evidence for you to make a link."

Actually the marriage entry didn't give her place of birth/residence, I was extremely lucky that her father and brother had the name Oswald and that's when the name Oswald started appearing in descendant lines of the family she married into.  Previously I had searched no end of Essex parish registers etc looking for that lady's birth/baptism, then a guy I contacted in the Guild of one name studies pointed me in the right direction, I would never have considered Yorkshire as a place to search.

Where did John Fewell and his wife Elizabeth Green baptise their Children please.   I've looked in both Lt Canfield and Takeley transcripts and not found them there.

Regards.
Concentrating currently on:
Essex: Card, Harris, Stowell, Theobald/Tibbles & Turner.
Norfolk: Beale, Cork & Dalton.
Yorkshire: Oswald Sturdy birth/baptism c1708, Oswald where the devil are you?

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Lord_Vader

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Re: Can anyone help me please.
« Reply #41 on: Monday 03 September 18 04:19 BST (UK) »
Hello,

Have a look in the Hatfield Broad Oak Parish which is nearby in location to Takeley. Search for John buried there in 1769 and notes his parents with residence of Brewers End which is near Takeley. William and Elizabeth’s son Philip’s children are baptised at Takeley noting their residence as Takeley Street.

With your Oswald connection, have you any other evidence other than a name? The reason to question is that if you base a confirmed connection on just a name then you will have people connecting to families all over the country and constantly jumping from one Parish to another. Sound advice given from genealogists is that when a family starts to jump around from Parish to Parish and even County to County, this starts to raise some eyebrows. If I went by that logic, then I could claim many royal connections, but alas there is no actual evidence to prove such a connection. I descend from a James Maddison who lived at Anick near Hexham in Northumberland, the only James Maddison who is the correct age noted is born in Sunderland in Durham. While I can claim descent from him based on the family names, there is no other evidence to prove a connection existed and therefore cannot be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Like the Millicent connection, the Oswald connection needs to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

I stress to all who are researching that real evidence from documents needs to be in line to support a theoretical connection. Too often incorrect family trees are based on little or no evidence and just a name.

Kind Regards,

Jared

Offline Lord_Vader

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Re: Can anyone help me please.
« Reply #42 on: Monday 03 September 18 12:09 BST (UK) »
Have you seen the Samuel Fewell married at Little Waltham in 1774 and who died there I think it was 1817 with a birth year circa 1748.

Given the proximity he could likely be a brother to your William and would suggest that a Fewell family did live there. The children may not have been born there, but possibly moved there as children or young adults with the parents.

Did your William have a son called Samuel?

Offline findem

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Re: Can anyone help me please.
« Reply #43 on: Tuesday 04 September 18 02:05 BST (UK) »
Hi Jared,

"Have a look in the Hatfield Broad Oak Parish which is nearby in location to Takeley. Search for John buried there in 1769 and notes his parents with residence of Brewers End which is near Takeley. William and Elizabeth’s son Philip’s children are baptised at Takeley noting their residence as Takeley Street."

Won't be able to do so for a while I don't have an Essex ancestors sub.

"With your Oswald connection, have you any other evidence other than a name?"

Yes, quite a bit and more than sufficient to give me confidence I have that right lady, to be honest this one gave me trouble accepting it, my initial thoughts were what brought this couple together, can't be right.  However the evidence mounted up to a point where I had to accept the fact that Susanna Sturdy came all the way from Nun Monkton Yorkshire to Gt Waltham in Essex and married William Adams.  No doubt how this couple met or how the marriage was arranged I guess I'll never know, I do know her father is buried in Nun Monkton and her brother Oswald in Tadcaster so it wasn't a case of her family moving down to Essex.

"Have you seen the Samuel Fewell married at Little Waltham in 1774 and who died there I think it was 1817 with a birth year circa 1748."

I can't be sure, I know our group searched quite a number of parishes but whether that Samuel came to light or whether anyone brought it to my attention I can't be sure.

HBO parish registers have given me food for thought, I recall initially they were being held at HBO all the ERO had at the time was an index which gave very brief details, if you found something of interest it would entail contacting HBO and pay a fee for the info.

Regards.

Concentrating currently on:
Essex: Card, Harris, Stowell, Theobald/Tibbles & Turner.
Norfolk: Beale, Cork & Dalton.
Yorkshire: Oswald Sturdy birth/baptism c1708, Oswald where the devil are you?

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Online LizzieL

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Re: Can anyone help me please.
« Reply #44 on: Tuesday 04 September 18 08:26 BST (UK) »

Yes, quite a bit and more than sufficient to give me confidence I have that right lady, to be honest this one gave me trouble accepting it, my initial thoughts were what brought this couple together, can't be right.  However the evidence mounted up to a point where I had to accept the fact that Susanna Sturdy came all the way from Nun Monkton Yorkshire to Gt Waltham in Essex and married William Adams.  No doubt how this couple met or how the marriage was arranged I guess I'll never know, I do know her father is buried in Nun Monkton and her brother Oswald in Tadcaster so it wasn't a case of her family moving down to Essex.


I had a similar problem with one of my ancestor's relatives. He seemed to have been born in Yorkshire, lived there all his life and died there, but the only likely marriage was one in London. I had his name (rather uncommon surname), wife's forename (from baptisms of children) and a likely date range (between the year he was 18 and baptism of first child). The groom in the marriage I had found in London was a servant, but otp. The final bit of evidence was finding him as a beneficiary in the will of his former employer. He was a valet to a gentleman who had a country house in Yorkshire and a town house in London in the same parish as the marriage. Looking through the marriage records for that church, I discovered his employer had also married there several years earlier.
Perhaps your lady from Nun Monkton was a servant who travelled with the family she was employed by. Many kept a set of servants in each house, but valets, ladies' maids, nurses and governesses would frequently travel with the family.
Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Lanark: Scott (soldier went to Jersey CI)
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott