The ALLEN or ALLEINE family of St Agnes, Cornwall (circa 1750-1850)

[Limeburner Mitchell]

Hello Cornwall forum readers

There have been a couple of threads lately about Cornish Allen families. Surely it can’t hurt to start another? 

This Allen family is from mainland St Agnes.  I have been through a couple of changes of mind with ancestors in this family over the years, and am curious as to whether I might now be on the right track. 

Joan Allen was born on 03 April 1806, and baptised 01 June 1806 at St Agnes Parish Church.  Her parents were recorded as William and Jennifer.  She appears to be the youngest of 5 siblings (John Paul, Mary Ann, William, Elizabeth, and Joan). 

I think Joan Allen’s mother was Jennifer Paul.  Jennifer was probably born late in 1775, and was almost certainly the daughter of John Paul (b about 1740 in St Agnes) and Mary Bray (b 1742 in Gwennap, daughter of James and Mary). 

Joan Allen’s father appears to be William, son of “William Alleine” and Joan (nee Dale, I think – parents most probably James Dale and Emblyn Tonkin).  William was baptised on 13 July 1776 in St Agnes, almost a year after his parents married in St Agnes. 

Even though names and dates all suggest that this William and Jennifer are very likely to be Joan Allen’s parents, one reason I’m a bit uncertain is that they are atypically young for Cornish parents at this time (at least in my big Cornish family).  Jennifer is barely 18 when their first son John Paul Allen is born (John Paul is baptised in St Agnes on 12 April 1794), and William would be 17. 

If anyone knows anything more about these Allens – or the Dale, Bray or Tonkin families – I’d love to hear from you   

Kindest regards,

Grant Limeburner Mitchell

[trish1120]

Hi,
Firstly the Baptism/Birth date you have are for a Jean Allen.
When/where/who did your Joan marry?
Do you have her Burial to confirm her year of Birth?
Were the names William/Jennifer used for her Children?

I know these are questions you may have already covered but for others to help they are crucial.

Trish

[Limeburner Mitchell]

G'day Trish

Good points - and frankly I'm all for having as much doco online about ancestral research as possible!

I reckon that the Jean baptism you're referring to is for my Joan.  I don't have it in front of me, but I suspect there might be transcription issues.  Jean isn't a common name in the early 1800s, while Joan is relatively common. 

Joan Allen married Thomas Sampson in Illogan on 24 July 1836.  They are in the 1841-71 Censuses (1841 Mingoose, 1851 Penwinick, and Goonown in 1861 and 1871). 

There was no matching death for Joan Sampson in the GRO, although it seemed likely she died in 1871.  I took a punt on the "Ivan Sampson" in the GRO (ref no 5c 94) being another transcription error.  It seems I was right this time.  "Ivan" was actually my Joan, the wife of farmer Thomas Sampson, and she died of bronchitis aged 65 on 05 Aug 1871. 

Joan's parents were William and Jennifer Allen.  William and Jennifer's children's names (that I know of) were John Paul (bap. 1794), Mary Ann (1797), William (1801), Elizabeth (1804), and Joan (1806).

Have to run for an hour or so, but hope that helps - many thanks for reading

Very best

Grant

[osprey]

agree with you that Jean is a mistranscription, here's the original

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hwc/ 

What source are you using for the ages of William & Jennifer? There's nothing on the marriage to suggest they are under 21
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hwd/ 

There would appear to be 2 couples of similar name having children baptised in St Agnes at the same time
William Allen & Jane Martin who married 5 Aug 1763 & William Allein & Joan Dale who married 5 Aug 1775, both couples had a son called William, the older one being son of William & Jane baptised 23 Aug 1766. He may be the William who was buried 17 July 1831 aged 63 of Rinker's Wood.

I think the reason for the early marriage is obvious, married in Jan 1794 and John Paul Allen was born 12 April 1794 according to his baptism.

 

[Limeburner Mitchell]

agree with you that Jean is a mistranscription, here's the original

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hwc/ 

Splendid - thanks Osprey - that's the record I'm familiar with.  I love your short URL links to the familysearch scans, by the way.   

What source are you using for the ages of William & Jennifer? There's nothing on the marriage to suggest they are under 21
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hwd/ 

There would appear to be 2 couples of similar name having children baptised in St Agnes at the same time
William Allen & Jane Martin who married 5 Aug 1763 & William Allein & Joan Dale who married 5 Aug 1775, both couples had a son called William, the older one being son of William & Jane baptised 23 Aug 1766. He may be the William who was buried 17 July 1831 aged 63 of Rinker's Wood.

I think the reason for the early marriage is obvious, married in Jan 1794 and John Paul Allen was born 12 April 1794 according to his baptism.

 

Yes, I think John Paul's birth in April indicates that William and Jennifer might have been a couple of trimesters closer to being parents on their wedding day!  The little scamps.   

The point you raise first in the quote block above is exactly my conundrum.  There isn't anything to indicate that William and Jennifer are kids on their marriage record.  However, when I look at the names of their children, I can't resist having Jennifer (b. 1775) and William (b. 1776) as the parents. 

William Allen and Jennifer Paul's first son in 1794, seconds after they tie the knot, is John Paul Allen.  Jennifer Paul (b. late 1775) has a father by the name of John Paul. 

Second child, and eldest daughter Mary Ann might well be named for Jennifer's mother, Mary Bray. 

Third child is William; he's clearly named for the paternal Williams. 

Fourth child is Elizabeth.  Not sure of the significance of that name - though it's pretty ubiquitous in the 1700s.  Both Jennifer (b. 1775) and William (b. 1776) have sisters named Elizabeth.   

Fifth child, though, is my Joan Allen.  And Joan is the name of the 1776-born William's mother. 

William and Jennifer have three daughters, but there is no "Jane" for Jane Martin.  Jane Martin seems to have been baptised in St Agnes on 06 December 1740, the daughter of James Martin (he probably witnesses their marriage too).  But James isn't commemorated in the names of William and Jennifer's children either.  All this makes me less inclined to think that Joan Allen's father William is the 1766-born son of William Allen and Jane Martin.   

Regarding this other contemporary Allen family from St Agnes, and just for the record, it seems probable that Jane Allen (nee Martin) is buried in St Agnes in 1810, aged 70.  This matches nicely with her 1740 baptism.  There's a William Allen, aged 80, buried in St Agnes a year later.  Both burial records indicate that they were living in Perranzabuloe.  If these burials are Jane and William, who's the other St Agnes William Allen that you've turned up, Osprey - the one from Rinker's Wood who is buried in St Agnes in mid 1831? 

I don't know, readers.  It really does seem like there's (at least) two William Allen families and either could be the correct ancestral line for Joan Allen (and John Paul, etc.).  Am I being too hung up on children's names, and overlooking something obvious, perhaps? 

Greatly appreciate all this help! 

Grant

[osprey]

just to add to the mix, Jane & Jennifer can be interchangeable in Cornwall.

As for naming patterns, first son would usually be after father's father, second after mother's father, first daughter after mother's mother, second after father's mother.
http://www.cornwall-opc.org/Resc/naming_patterns.php

Have you checked for wills? Cornwall record office catalogue is searchable online, but seems to be down at the moment
http://crocat.cornwall.gov.uk/DServe/searchpage.htm

[osprey]

just checked & haven't spotted any Allen wills from St Agnes.

By the way, the shrinklink is at the bottom of the page on Rootschat to avoid stretching pages.


 

[Limeburner Mitchell]

just to add to the mix, Jane & Jennifer can be interchangeable in Cornwall.

As for naming patterns, first son would usually be after father's father, second after mother's father, first daughter after mother's mother, second after father's mother.
http://www.cornwall-opc.org/Resc/naming_patterns.php

Have you checked for wills? Cornwall record office catalogue is searchable online, but seems to be down at the moment
http://crocat.cornwall.gov.uk/DServe/searchpage.htm

Hello Osprey!  Thanks again! 

Yes, I'm painfully aware of the interchangeability of Jane and Jennifer!  But I'm wondering, in your experience, have you ever seen Joan interchangeable for Jennifer?  Or anything else? 

I should also say that my recent genealogical journey has seen me go back through all my previous research, re-testing it against naming patterns and likely migration patterns etc.  The Allens are one of the families that I have totally reassessed, on both counts.  I originally had a William Allen from Manaccan as the father of my 1806-1871 Joan, then I thought her father may have been the William of William and Jane Martin fame.  But now I'm closer to settling on the young Jenifer Paul, and the perhaps younger William Allein.

I think the naming pattern you've linked above should absolutely be used as the basis for research into Cornish families from at least the 1600s up until the early Victorian era.  But, of course, it's not legislated, and it's not a cookie cutter pattern either.  As the link says, there are always variations, aren't there? 

In the absence of detailed evidence to help us understand these families in their social context, we can't easily explain why some seem to diverge from applying the naming pattern literally.  I wonder, for instance, whether a particularly benevolent or relatively powerful or well-connected maternal father might get remembered in the name of a first son, rather than the father's father.  Ditto with a paternal mother being recognised in the name of a first daughter.  Perhaps the name of a favourite sister moves up the pecking order, especially if she dies early.  Or the (lucky) second wife gets to christen her first daughter after a first wife, rather than her own mum.  There might already be so many children of a similar age in the family that are named after the same ancestor that parents decide to deviate from the pattern to minimise confusion.  And if there's a paternal or maternal name that is a bit ... well ... unfashionable or unusual (I'm looking at you, Mahershalalhashbaz) it might get skipped, or a nickname substituted.  And of course Jane becomes Jennifer, or Margaret Peg, or Janet Jessie (depending on where you're from).  Or there's a transcription error.  Lots of factors to take into consideration! 

But in this case, I think first son John Paul Allen is a pretty good indicator at least that Jennifer Paul - the 1775-born daughter of John Paul - is Joan Allen's mother.  I'm not prepared to say I'm certain, but close to.  As you pointed it out, I'm a bit concerned about the lack of evidence of Jennifer and William's young age on the marriage register. 

The William Allens are where I'm still most confused.  It's such a shame, Osprey, that there are no wills! 

And many thanks for demystifying that Shrinklink tool for me!   

Kindest regards

Grant

[Limeburner Mitchell]

Hello again readers

I just realised I should include the known children of William Allen and Jane Martin/Martyn of St Agnes, in case anyone has any info about them that might help to definitively sort out these families. 

They married in St Agnes on 05 August 1763.  William is a “sojourner”, but Jane is of St Agnes.  He signs, she doesn’t.  James Martin and <TBC> Cocking sign as witnesses.  Here’s the shrinklink:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hwg/

(See what I did there, Osprey!  Thanks  )

In terms of their children, so far I have identified:

•   Jenifer ALLEN, baptised St Agnes 14 July 1764
•   William ALLEN, baptised St Agnes 23 August 1766
•   Grace ALLEN, baptised St Agnes 05 July 1770
•   Thomas ALLEN, baptised St Agnes 20 May 1773
•   Catharine ALEINE, baptised St Agnes 22 June 1776
•   Thomas ALLINE, baptised St Agnes 06 May 1781

There are a couple of burials in St Agnes that are likely to be related.  Grace Allen, “dr of William”, is buried on 28 Feb 1769.  That’s before the 1770 Grace.  I can’t find a matching baptism. 

Also, an unnamed child of William Allen is buried in St Agnes in 1774.  I've assumed that's the 1773 Thomas. 

I think I indicated in a previous post that Jane Martin's father was probably James Martin - and quite possibly the very one who witnesses her marriage.  There's a James Martin who marries Grace Moore in St Agnes on 20 Dec 1739.   

Very best regards,

Grant