Birth/baptism - William Barnes (b. 1872 in Liverpool)

[Ladyhawk]

Eliza Barnes Death Oct-Nov-Dec 1875 Liverpool 8b 22:

Ninth November 1875, 245 Burlington Street
 Eliza Barnes Age: 12 weeks
Daughter of Thomas Barnes, stoker (deceased)
Cause: Pneumonia 4 days, convulsions 2 days, certified by A Chain LRCP
Informant: x The mark of Eliza Barnes, mother, present at death, Burlington Street
Registered: Eleventh November 1875
Registrar: J Hebson, deputy registrar

NB: Same address as William's birth.

Eliza Barnes age 12 weeks, 245 Burlington Street
Burial Date: 11 Nov 1875 Ford Cemetery, Lancashire
Grave S.J.935

[Ladyhawk]

There is also this from the 1881 census, which is an Elizabeth Barnes, a widow born around 1848 in Ireland with her son William born in Liverpool around 1873, which fits with the 1893 death:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQD8-X8R

I don't have her in the 1891 census, but the 1893 death is looking more consistent. I'll get the certificate ordered later on.

Do you have Eliza’s son William Barnes on 1891 census?

Is this a possibility for Eliza a boarder in Liverpool

Her surname transcribed as Baucke and looks to read Bourke not Barnes   

1891 RG12; Piece: 2912; Folio: 61; Page: 16
Eliza boarder widow age 49 Ireland Co. Wexford occ ?house woman

Looking to see if I can find an Eliza Bourke/Baucke on 1881 census but haven't come up with anything yet 

[Billy_B]

And I utterly failed to find any of the Barrys who were born after the family arrived in Liverpool (also checked on Lancashire OPC and FreeReg, as well as FindMyPast and FamilySearch):
Julia, John, Catherine, Martha and John (necronym?).

I suspect there is some surname weirdness going on, but quite what it might be is elusive.

The 1851 c son/dau John & Julia age 3 (1848) noted as Twins of John & Joanna Barry

Possibly Julia’s Christian name is Johannah on birth entry

John’s 1848 birth entry vol/page same as Johannah’s  entry

John Barry
1848 Oct-Nov-Dec Liverpool Lancashire Volume:   20 Page:   2538

Johannah Barry
1848 Oct-Nov-Dec Liverpool Lancashire Volume:   20 Page:   2538

If you look at the original 1848 birth entries they are written as
surname Barry  name Johannah district Liverpool vol XX page 258
surname Barry  name John        district Liverpool vol XX page 258

That is a good find - I must have looked at the results for Barrys born in Liverpool and the penny hadn't dropped. I can't fault your logic (coming from a family of alternating Billys and Willys) so I ordered up her birth certificate too.

[Billy_B]

There is also this from the 1881 census, which is an Elizabeth Barnes, a widow born around 1848 in Ireland with her son William born in Liverpool around 1873, which fits with the 1893 death:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQD8-X8R

I don't have her in the 1891 census, but the 1893 death is looking more consistent. I'll get the certificate ordered later on.

Is this a possibility for Eliza a boarder in Liverpool

Her surname transcribed as Baucke and looks to read Bourke not Barnes   

1891 RG12; Piece: 2912; Folio: 61; Page: 16
Eliza boarder widow age 49 Ireland Co. Wexford occ ?house woman

Looking to see if I can find an Eliza Bourke/Baucke on 1881 census but haven't come up with anything yet 

Yes, it is transcribed as Bourke here (she was a warehouse woman):
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:791C-M6Z

Looking at the actual census page, it certainly looks like Bourke. It may be they misheard, but the age is also out. Norfolk Street is on the south side of the city centre down by the docks. So I'd put it down as a maybe.

I suppose it depends on when she died - it might be hers is the earlier death. We'll wait and see.

Do you have Eliza’s son William Barnes on 1891 census?

I found a couple of possibilities:

William Burnes aged 21 - the age is off (we'd be looking at 18-19) but he is a ship's fireman (very telling now we know his father's job, although he is listed as a ship's painter on his wedding certificate and in the 1911 census but you could imagine, given his father's fate, that he might want a safer job when he settled down) and he is living on Silvester Street which is almost opposite St Anthony's. He is lodging with three other stokers and there is a bracket around them saying... "seas"?, one of them appears to be a John Burnes but he is born in Scotland so they aren't brothers [edit: rechecked, John Burnes is 40, so he could be his father]:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:79K2-RN2

William Barns aged 17 in the Toxteth Park workhouse:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7SRW-66Z

Either census result would explain why he wasn't living with his mother at this point, assuming she was still alive.

Possibly relevant is an 1890 conviction of a William Barnes aged 19, a ship's cook who stole a coat and a pair of socks from one Thomas Ryan and got 1 days imprisonment.

[Billy_B]

[edit: double post]

[Billy_B]

I got a couple of the certificates today:

The death of John Barry, which we were pretty certain on, and we see the son Patrick is the informant:

Where/when: Twenty third November 1866, 64 Paul Street
Name: John Barry
Sex: Male
Age: 60 years
Occupation: General labourer
Cause of death: Phthisis, certified
Informant: Patrick Barry, in attendance, 64 Paul Street, Liverpool
Registered: Twenty third November, 1866
Registrar: Thomas Lea Bradshaw, Registrar

And the birth of Johannah/Julia (and they have crossed the mother's name out and rewritten it, but they don't go back and correct the daughter's name):

When/where: Fourteenth August 1848, 3.0.pm, 15 Paul Street, Liverpool
Name: Johannah
Sex: Girl
Father: John Barry
Mother: Johannah Johanah Barry, formerly Murray
Father's occupation: Labourer
Informant: Johanah Barry, mother, 15 Paul Street, Liverpool
Registrered: Thirteenth October 1848
Registrar: Geo Garden, Registrar, Jas Eckersley, Sup Registrar

The fact that the mother is Murray possible brings this back into play:

Julia BARRY daughter of John and Johanna BARRY has a sister Eliza b.~1844.

We have the Barrys in the the 1851 and 1861 censuses:

• 1851: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKV6-1CNG
• 1861: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7P4-TDZ

So they appear to come from Wexford and presumably married in Ireland where they had some kids before coming to Liverpool and having some more, so it looks like they'd be easy to track down. The wife's maiden name would help pin them down In Ireland (as a quite search doesn't show up anything obvious) and I should be able get it from one of the English childrens' birth certificates. Julia seems the most obvious but I can't find anything for her, or Martha, and there are too many for the second son called John, but it looks like this is Catherine:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2N4H-HNN

As there are so many Barrys born in Wexford (according the the 1851 census), I thought it'd be easy to try and track down Margaret, Bridget, Mary and Patrick, which might help me track down Eliza. So I found this:

• Margaret, bp 12th July 1833 in Taghmon to a John Barry and Joanna Marian

Then keeping an eye out for Taghmon I spotted these:

• Bridget, bp 22nd March 1835 in Taghmon to a John Barry and Judith Minnay
• Mary, bp 30th June 1837 in Taghmon to a John Barry and Judy Murray
• Patrick, bp 8th Jul 1839 in Taghmon to a John Barry and Judy Murray

The thing is that the quality of the records is poor and difficult to make out. Minnay is obvious Murray and the mother's first name certainly looks like Judith. The other two definitely look like Judy Murray. Then if you go back and look at Margaret's records (records are here),  if you squint at it, there may be a faded hook on a "y" at the en of the mother's maiden name and, if so, Murray wouldn't be outrageous but while "Joanna" is difficult to make out, it doesn't look like Judith or Judy.

A John Barry married a Judith Murray in Barntown/Glinn on 26th November 1831 (Barntown is only a couple of miles from Taghmon). Coincidentally, before the Moses Ryan/Annie Ryan link back to Ireland collapsed (as a a descendant of the Ryans knew that that Moses Ryan died unmarried in Ireland), the family we traced all got married and baptise in Barntown/Glinn. I have genetic links with a group of Doyle cousins from Oylegate - a few miles north of Barntown.

Anyway, despite the birth order and date being right (compared to the 1851 census), the links between the family members there look pretty solid and it suggests these aren't the Barrys we are looking for. Unless the British-born Barrys demonstrate that their mother's maiden name was Murray.

The baptism of Margaret on the 12th July 1833 in Taghmon must be them:
http://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634128#page/1/mode/1up

So can we assume the others are, as they fit the birth order and date estimates in the census?

I suppose "Judy" could be "Julie", which would fit with the Johanna/Julia we can see happening with the birth certificate and/or it could be the mother is doing something similar but as Johanna/Judith? It definitely looks like Judith on Bridget's baptismal record, which could suggest the latter explanation.

edit: If I could find a relevant Eliza/Elizabeth in there, it'd certainly help confirm this.

[Billy_B]

Got another certificate:

When/where: Fifteenth January 1872, 95 Titchfield Street
Name: Ellen Mary Elizabeth Barnes
Sex: Female
Age: 1 year
Occupation: Daughter of Thomas Barnes, stoker
Cause of death: Bronchitis, certified
Informant: x The mark of Elizabeth Barnes, present at death, Titchfield Street
Registered: Fifteenth January 1872
Registrar: Robert McClelland, Registrar

Also more thoughts on this:

The fact that the mother is Murray possible brings this back into play:

We have the Barrys in the the 1851 and 1861 censuses:

• 1851: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKV6-1CNG
• 1861: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7P4-TDZ

So they appear to come from Wexford and presumably married in Ireland where they had some kids before coming to Liverpool and having some more, so it looks like they'd be easy to track down. The wife's maiden name would help pin them down In Ireland (as a quite search doesn't show up anything obvious) and I should be able get it from one of the English childrens' birth certificates. Julia seems the most obvious but I can't find anything for her, or Martha, and there are too many for the second son called John, but it looks like this is Catherine:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2N4H-HNN

As there are so many Barrys born in Wexford (according the the 1851 census), I thought it'd be easy to try and track down Margaret, Bridget, Mary and Patrick, which might help me track down Eliza. So I found this:

• Margaret, bp 12th July 1833 in Taghmon to a John Barry and Joanna Marian

Then keeping an eye out for Taghmon I spotted these:

• Bridget, bp 22nd March 1835 in Taghmon to a John Barry and Judith Minnay
• Mary, bp 30th June 1837 in Taghmon to a John Barry and Judy Murray
• Patrick, bp 8th Jul 1839 in Taghmon to a John Barry and Judy Murray

The thing is that the quality of the records is poor and difficult to make out. Minnay is obvious Murray and the mother's first name certainly looks like Judith. The other two definitely look like Judy Murray. Then if you go back and look at Margaret's records (records are here),  if you squint at it, there may be a faded hook on a "y" at the en of the mother's maiden name and, if so, Murray wouldn't be outrageous but while "Joanna" is difficult to make out, it doesn't look like Judith or Judy.

A John Barry married a Judith Murray in Barntown/Glinn on 26th November 1831 (Barntown is only a couple of miles from Taghmon). Coincidentally, before the Moses Ryan/Annie Ryan link back to Ireland collapsed (as a a descendant of the Ryans knew that that Moses Ryan died unmarried in Ireland), the family we traced all got married and baptise in Barntown/Glinn. I have genetic links with a group of Doyle cousins from Oylegate - a few miles north of Barntown.

Anyway, despite the birth order and date being right (compared to the 1851 census), the links between the family members there look pretty solid and it suggests these aren't the Barrys we are looking for. Unless the British-born Barrys demonstrate that their mother's maiden name was Murray.

The baptism of Margaret on the 12th July 1833 in Taghmon must be them:
http://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000634128#page/1/mode/1up

So can we assume the others are, as they fit the birth order and date estimates in the census?

I suppose "Judy" could be "Julie", which would fit with the Johanna/Julia we can see happening with the birth certificate and/or it could be the mother is doing something similar but as Johanna/Judith? It definitely looks like Judith on Bridget's baptismal record, which could suggest the latter explanation.

edit: If I could find a relevant Eliza/Elizabeth in there, it'd certainly help confirm this.

I did a search to see if there is some link between Johannah, Julia and Judith that isn't obvious. There doesn't seem to be, but I found this list of female ancestor nicknames, which contains:

Joanna, Johanna -   Anna, Joan, Jean, Jo, Joan, Jody

This might suggest that Mary and Patrick's mother could actually be Jody Murray. Bridget's mother and the marriage do certainly seem to be Judith, but then I suppose you could devise a scenario where a priest is told she is Jody Murray and thinking she said Judy which he then writes down as Judith. Unfortunately, I can't find the baptism of a Judith or Johannah Murray in Glinn, which is where I'd assume she came from (as they were married in Barntown), despite the records starting in 1817.

I suppose the deciding factor would be if that family stayed in Wexford and died there (which is what caused the Ryan/Doran link back to Wexford to collapse), but that is for the future.

[Billy_B]

Also her age shifts her estimated year of birth to around 1846, which would support the 1893 death:

If Eliza was born around 1844 in Ireland, we have these possibilities:

1878, aged 35:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=UMDluMLnWpHZ83iG%2F9%2BZPw&scan=1

1893, aged 46 (although this would give an estimated birth of 1847):
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=m2YDzbozPV0XuUkY4C5HYQ&scan=1

1903, aged 59:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=CjGYKzR3lGr%2FSeTwYZbZUw&scan=1

A bit tricky to call. If she died in 1903, then you might imagine she'd be with her son William in the 1901 census and we only find them with Annie's mother Catherine Ryan.

There is also this from the 1881 census, which is an Elizabeth Barnes, a widow born around 1848 in Ireland with her son William born in Liverpool around 1873, which fits with the 1893 death:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQD8-X8R

I don't have her in the 1891 census, but the 1893 death is looking more consistent. I'll get the certificate ordered later on.

Got that and it isn't her:

When/where: Twenty first September 1893, Infirmary Mill Road USD
Name: Elizabeth Barnes
Sex: Female
Age: 46 years
Occupation: Wife of William Barnes, rock labourer, 37 Mark Street Everton
Cause: Erysipelas, broncho pneumonia, syncope, certified by A.W. German M.R.C.S.
Informant: W. Barnes, widower of deceased, 37 Mark Street Everton
Registered: Twenty second September 1893
Registrar: W ??, registrar

I suppose the next one to try is the 1878 death - it would fit better with the idea that he had a "stepmother" (or a kind of adoptive one), but it does suggest that 1881 census is wrong (or that William Barnes had an unmarried sister called Elizabeth who came over from Ireland to look after him). If someone did take him in, it might explain why he is elusive in the censuses, although it is surprising that none of the Barrys helped, but we don't know their circumstances.

[Billy_B]

Also her age shifts her estimated year of birth to around 1846, which would support the 1893 death:

If Eliza was born around 1844 in Ireland, we have these possibilities:

1878, aged 35:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=UMDluMLnWpHZ83iG%2F9%2BZPw&scan=1

1893, aged 46 (although this would give an estimated birth of 1847):
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=m2YDzbozPV0XuUkY4C5HYQ&scan=1

1903, aged 59:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=CjGYKzR3lGr%2FSeTwYZbZUw&scan=1

A bit tricky to call. If she died in 1903, then you might imagine she'd be with her son William in the 1901 census and we only find them with Annie's mother Catherine Ryan.

There is also this from the 1881 census, which is an Elizabeth Barnes, a widow born around 1848 in Ireland with her son William born in Liverpool around 1873, which fits with the 1893 death:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQD8-X8R

I don't have her in the 1891 census, but the 1893 death is looking more consistent. I'll get the certificate ordered later on.

Got that and it isn't her:

When/where: Twenty first September 1893, Infirmary Mill Road USD
Name: Elizabeth Barnes
Sex: Female
Age: 46 years
Occupation: Wife of William Barnes, rock labourer, 37 Mark Street Everton
Cause: Erysipelas, broncho pneumonia, syncope, certified by A.W. German M.R.C.S.
Informant: W. Barnes, widower of deceased, 37 Mark Street Everton
Registered: Twenty second September 1893
Registrar: W ??, registrar

I suppose the next one to try is the 1878 death - it would fit better with the idea that he had a "stepmother" (or a kind of adoptive one), but it does suggest that 1881 census is wrong (or that William Barnes had an unmarried sister called Elizabeth who came over from Ireland to look after him). If someone did take him in, it might explain why he is elusive in the censuses, although it is surprising that none of the Barrys helped, but we don't know their circumstances.

Nope, not her:

When/where: Thirteenth April 1878, 58 Waterloo Road
Name: Elizabeth Barnes
Sex: Female
Age: 35 years
Occupation: Daughter of Richard Barnes, farmer (deceased)
Cause: Acute puerperal mania, 3 days, certified by R.M. Pughe M.D.
Informant: Wm Burdett, present at death, 116 Portland Street
Registered: Fifteenth April 1878
Registrar: R. Bookless, Deputy Registrar

Since getting that I've been checking to make sure there is nothing that has been overlooked, like Eliza Barnes remarrying, but there are so many it'd be difficult to come up with anything without any other clues and we might have expected to find this in the censuses. So I'll order the 1903 certificate.