Birth/baptism - William Barnes (b. 1872 in Liverpool)

[Billy_B]

I was looking at the Kirkpatricks as possible relatives of William Barnes, when they might be connected to his wife Annie Ryan:

I wonder if George and Isabella Kirkpatrick may have been related to the Ryans rather than the Barnes??

1871 census
Moses and Kate Ryan (Annie's parents) are lodging with the Brocksapp? family - and are living next door to George & Isabella Kirkpatrick

So we rewind to the Kirkpatricks:

• He had other relatives - George and Isabella Kirkpatrick who owned a furniture shop on Stanley Road in Bootle. William and Annie apparently had a rather over-large (enough that it was a talking point) piece of furniture in their house that they got from them.

George and Isabella seem to have been born around 1848:
1871 census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBF8-QZF
1881 census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKXX-LLYL

Which puts them in the same generation as William Barnes' parents, so... aunt or parent's cousin?

They were married in 1869 and her maiden name is Campbell (as we know from the brother-in-law Thomas) in the 1871 census:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N2B3-7VH

And follow the other line...

We can pick him up in the earlier censuses:

• 1851: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKVX-QKLJ
• 1861: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M755-9RH

He is with his mother Margaret a widow and not only is she from Scotland, but so are the early children, so they seem to have got married north of the border and then headed to Liverpool. Which suggests she is unlikely to be related to the Ryan/Dorans. It may be if we can get them back to Ireland we'd pick up the Kirkpatrick trail or it could be they were just friends of the family from when they were neighbours. So this one might resolve itself in time.

This seems to be George's birth registration in 1845:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:26GD-KPM

[Billy_B]

A*try
Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms,
Gulielmus BARON born 31 May 1872
Baptism: 16 Jun 1872
Parish:Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette, Lancashire, England
Father:Thomae Baron
Mother:Elizth Barry

Maureen

EDIT: It looks as though there were 2 other children (girls) born to the couple.

I went to the library and grabbed the baptismal records for the two girls and it shows how difficult tracking them down is:

Helena Maria Elizabeth Barron
Father: Thoma Barron
Mother: Elizabeth Barry
Birth: 24 Apr 1870
Baptism: 22 May 1870 - St Anthony's

Elizabetha Bernes
Father: Thoma Bernes
Mother: Elizabetha Barry
Birth: 18 Aug 1875
Baptism: 30 Aug 1875 - St Sylvester (Sylvestri)

NB: My parents were married at St Sylvester's.

All consistent with this:

Looks like both of William's sisters died - Helena Maria Elizabeth bp.1870 died as Ellen Mary E. Mar.qtr.1872 Liverpool - Elizabetha bp.1875 - if Eliza died Dec.1875, if Elizabeth died Jun.1876.

It also strikes me that is the mother died in late 1875 and the father died in 1875, then Elizabeth's death certificate would reveal who was looking after the children (and might have counted as a "step mother" - I'm wondering if it might be a sister of Thomas Barnes or one of the Barrys). I have ordered that certificate for Eliza. If that is her, then I'll order Elizabeth's, which might shed a little more light on things.

If right, then that suggests the family had a grim old time - Thomas looks to have died in June 1875, Elizabeth was born two months later, her mother Eliza died almost immediately afterwards (perhaps as a consequence of the birth) and then Elizabeth was dead before her first birthday leaving just William.

[Billy_B]

I went to the library and grabbed the baptismal records for the two girls and it shows how difficult tracking them down is:

And I utterly failed to find any of the Barrys who were born after the family arrived in Liverpool (also checked on Lancashire OPC and FreeReg, as well as FindMyPast and FamilySearch): Julia, John, Catherine, Martha and John (necronym?).

I suspect there is some surname weirdness going on, but quite what it might be is elusive.

I might take a put on ordering the birth certificate of a Catherine Barry, the only match I can find in the BMD indices:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2N4H-HNN

[Billy_B]

OK I've got three of the four certificates I ordered and as the other is the wedding of Thomas and Eliza Barry, so these are the ones we had our fingers crossed for and they are all hits (although one isn't what I was expecting):

--
William Barron Birth Jul-Aug-Sep 1872 Liverpool 8b 23:

When/where: Twenty fifth June 1872, 245 Burlington Street
Name: William
Sex: Boy
Father: Thomas Barron
Mother: Eliza Barron formerly Barry
Occupation of father: Seaman
Informant: x The mark of Eliza Barron, mother, Burlington Street
Registered: Thirtieth July 1872
Registrar: Robert McClelland, registrar

NB: The date is wrong, but that is the right person so I'll stick with the birth date we get from the 1939 Register and baptism.

--
Eliza Barnes Death Oct-Nov-Dec 1875 Liverpool 8b 22:

When/where: Ninth November 1875, 245 Burlington Street
Name: Eliza Barnes
Sex: Female
Age: 12 weeks
Occupation: Daughter of Thomas Barnes, stoker (deceased)
Cause: Pneumonia 4 days, convulsions 2 days, certified by A Chain LRCP
Informant: x The mark of Eliza Barnes, mother, present at death, Burlington Street
Registered: Eleventh November 1875
Registrar: J Hebson, deputy registrar

NB: Same address as William's birth. I thought this was the mother's death, but it was the sister's - this means the mother lived longer than the father, so I can't see where a step-mother would fit in. It might also be that the 1876 death of an Eliza Barnes isn't her and that the Elizabeth Barnes with a William Barnes in the 1881 census is her (unless she died and Thomas had a sister called Elizabeth who came over from Ireland and adopted him, but Occam's Razor probably applies here). So I am unsure the 1876 death of an Eliza Barnes is worth ordering.

--
Johanna Barry Death Oct-Nov-Dec 1882 Liverpool 8b 17:

When/where: Fifth November 1882, 51 Wilbraham Street USD
Name: Johanna Barry
Sex: Female
Age: 62 years
Occupation: Widow of John Barry, labourer
Cause: Catarrh of stomach and general debility, certified by J. Bond MB
Informant: Henry Carroll, son-in-law, present at death, 51 Wilbraham Street
Registered: Sixth November 1882
Registrar: T Blair, registrar

NB: Wilbraham Street is only just across the road from Burlington Street (both in the general Vauxhall area right by the new tunnel entrance). If she was buried in a private grave in one of the big Catholic cemeteries I should be able to get them to look up who else was buried there, which should help me order the right certificate for her husband's death.

edit: Oh and Henry Carroll looks to be the husband of Catherine Barry:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=Z%2FpbT1UMx%2FvHa3kt3XSrOg&scan=1
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2D5S-1YD

[Ladyhawk]

edit: Oh and Henry Carroll looks to be the husband of Catherine Barry:

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=Z%2FpbT1UMx%2FvHa3kt3XSrOg&scan=1

18 Sep 1877 Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette, Lancashire
Henricum Carroll, 25 T(F)itchfield St. father   Miles Carroll
Catherinam Barry, 19 Burlington St. father Johannis Barry
Johanne Dempsey 25 T(F)itchfiled St.
Marg'ta Fitzpatrick Bond St

[Ladyhawk]

Johanna Barry Death Oct-Nov-Dec 1882 Liverpool 8b 17:

When/where: Fifth November 1882, 51 Wilbraham Street USD
Name: Johanna Barry
Sex: Female
Age: 62 years
Occupation: Widow of John Barry, labourer
Cause: Catarrh of stomach and general debility, certified by J. Bond MB
Informant: Henry Carroll, son-in-law, present at death, 51 Wilbraham Street
Registered: Sixth November 1882
Registrar: T Blair, registrar

If she was buried in a private grave in one of the big Catholic cemeteries I should be able to get them to look up who else was buried there, which should help me order the right certificate for her husband's death.

Johanna Barry age    62 , address 51 Wilbraham  St
Burial Date:   8 Nov 1882 Ford Cemetery, Lancashire
grave  937
from Liverpool, England, Catholic Burials, 1813-1988

[Ladyhawk]

If she was buried in a private grave in one of the big Catholic cemeteries I should be able to get them to look up who else was buried there, which should help me order the right certificate for her husband's death.

I see from the 1861c John & Joanna Barry are living with their children at 64 Paul Street Liverpool

This looks to be his burial

John Barry age 60, 64 Paul St.
Burial Date:   25 Nov 1866 Ford Cemetery, Lancashire, England
Grave D.509

[Billy_B]

If she was buried in a private grave in one of the big Catholic cemeteries I should be able to get them to look up who else was buried there, which should help me order the right certificate for her husband's death.

I see from the 1861c John & Joanna Barry are living with their children at 64 Paul Street Liverpool

This looks to be his burial

John Barry age 60, 64 Paul St.
Burial Date:   25 Nov 1866 Ford Cemetery, Lancashire, England
Grave D.509

That was swift! Thanks.

It flags up that I missed the record of his actual burial in 1866:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=UWjpXZCrQaIBCr%2F2AF3O1A&scan=1

So I can now get his death certificate ordered with confidence.

[Billy_B]

Johanna Barry Death Oct-Nov-Dec 1882 Liverpool 8b 17:

When/where: Fifth November 1882, 51 Wilbraham Street USD
Name: Johanna Barry
Sex: Female
Age: 62 years
Occupation: Widow of John Barry, labourer
Cause: Catarrh of stomach and general debility, certified by J. Bond MB
Informant: Henry Carroll, son-in-law, present at death, 51 Wilbraham Street
Registered: Sixth November 1882
Registrar: T Blair, registrar

If she was buried in a private grave in one of the big Catholic cemeteries I should be able to get them to look up who else was buried there, which should help me order the right certificate for her husband's death.

Johanna Barry age    62 , address 51 Wilbraham  St
Burial Date:   8 Nov 1882 Ford Cemetery, Lancashire
grave  937
from Liverpool, England, Catholic Burials, 1813-1988

Thanks for that. I did have a burial record (which led to the death certificate) just not the location, although it now turns out the date and her age of death was wrong!!