Birth/baptism - William Barnes (b. 1872 in Liverpool)

[Ladyhawk]

And I utterly failed to find any of the Barrys who were born after the family arrived in Liverpool (also checked on Lancashire OPC and FreeReg, as well as FindMyPast and FamilySearch):
Julia, John, Catherine, Martha and John (necronym?).

I suspect there is some surname weirdness going on, but quite what it might be is elusive.

The 1851 c son/dau John & Julia age 3 (1848) noted as Twins of John & Joanna Barry

Possibly Julia’s Christian name is Johannah on birth entry

John’s 1848 birth entry vol/page same as Johannah’s  entry

John Barry
1848 Oct-Nov-Dec Liverpool Lancashire Volume:   20 Page:   2538

Johannah Barry
1848 Oct-Nov-Dec Liverpool Lancashire Volume:   20 Page:   2538

If you look at the original 1848 birth entries they are written as
surname Barry  name Johannah district Liverpool vol XX page 258
surname Barry  name John        district Liverpool vol XX page 258

[Blue70]

Ask Ozranga (Marienne) on this request offer thread. She can tell you everyone in a private grave:-

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=651292.423


Blue

[Ladyhawk]

Saw the names George & Isabella Kirkpatrick earlier - not sure if their marriage details have already been posted - apologies if I've duplicated

25 Dec 1869 St Nicholas Church
George Kirkpatrick, porter, Blake St. f James, stonemason
Isabella Campbell, ?insworth St. f James, sail maker
Both f/a, both single, he signed,she made her mark (x)
Witnessed by Thomas Campbell (x) & Margaret Harris

[Billy_B]

edit: Oh and Henry Carroll looks to be the husband of Catherine Barry:

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=Z%2FpbT1UMx%2FvHa3kt3XSrOg&scan=1

18 Sep 1877 Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette, Lancashire
Henricum Carroll, 25 T(F)itchfield St. father   Miles Carroll
Catherinam Barry, 19 Burlington St. father Johannis Barry
Johanne Dempsey 25 T(F)itchfiled St.
Marg'ta Fitzpatrick Bond St

And we then pick them up in the censuses, the 1881 census has Johanna living with them:

• 1881: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKXX-X53P
• 1891: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:79V5-1ZM
• 1901: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9VS-X3B

This then looks to be Henry with his parents Miles and Hannah (and an auntie) in the 1871 census:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBXG-MV6

[Billy_B]

Ask Ozranga (Marienne) on this request offer thread. She can tell you everyone in a private grave:-

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=651292.423

Thanks. I've posted the request, which covers what we are looking for here (I've previously phoned them up to get William and Annie Ryan's and Annie's parents - Moses Ryan died earlier and is, presumably, buried in an inner city cemetery):
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=651292.msg5954612#msg5954612

[Blue70]

Have you found any private graves for any of them at Ford or Yew Tree on the Ancestry site? Usually people have a private grave section and number for one person and Ozranga looks up the plot record for the private grave containing the names, dates, addresses of everyone in the grave.


Blue

[Billy_B]

Have you found any private graves for any of them at Ford or Yew Tree on the Ancestry site? Usually people have a private grave section and number for one person and Ozranga looks up the plot record for the private grave containing the names, dates, addresses of everyone in the grave.

I don't have an Ancestry subscription, just a FindMyPast one, but I can access it from the local library (although you only get an hour, so I try and get down what I need to look up ready), Anyway it looks like they are all public graves:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=651292.msg5955258#msg5955258

This is the pattern I have on both sides of my family - the first generation out of Ireland (my great grandparents) are in public graves and the next generation (my grandparents) are in private graves. The classic immigrant's story - each generation doing a little better than the previous one. We know William and Annie's grave as various parts of the family still visit it and it has a newish gravestone - it is AC 365 at Ford, buried with Auntie Kate and her family (they only lived a couple of doors down from her parents and they already had a plot as they lost two young children).

[Billy_B]

OK I've got three of the four certificates I ordered and as the other is the wedding of Thomas and Eliza Barry, so these are the ones we had our fingers crossed for and they are all hits (although one isn't what I was expecting):

...

--
Eliza Barnes Death Oct-Nov-Dec 1875 Liverpool 8b 22:

When/where: Ninth November 1875, 245 Burlington Street
Name: Eliza Barnes
Sex: Female
Age: 12 weeks
Occupation: Daughter of Thomas Barnes, stoker (deceased)
Cause: Pneumonia 4 days, convulsions 2 days, certified by A Chain LRCP
Informant: x The mark of Eliza Barnes, mother, present at death, Burlington Street
Registered: Eleventh November 1875
Registrar: J Hebson, deputy registrar

NB: Same address as William's birth. I thought this was the mother's death, but it was the sister's - this means the mother lived longer than the father, so I can't see where a step-mother would fit in. It might also be that the 1876 death of an Eliza Barnes isn't her and that the Elizabeth Barnes with a William Barnes in the 1881 census is her (unless she died and Thomas had a sister called Elizabeth who came over from Ireland and adopted him, but Occam's Razor probably applies here). So I am unsure the 1876 death of an Eliza Barnes is worth ordering.

Especially as that birth is for a 1 year-old:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=5WjuofqT7JKLngAbTc0hMw&scan=1

If Eliza was born around 1844 in Ireland, we have these possibilities:

1878, aged 35:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=UMDluMLnWpHZ83iG%2F9%2BZPw&scan=1

1893, aged 46 (although this would give an estimated birth of 1847):
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=m2YDzbozPV0XuUkY4C5HYQ&scan=1

1903, aged 59:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=CjGYKzR3lGr%2FSeTwYZbZUw&scan=1

A bit tricky to call. If she died in 1903, then you might imagine she'd be with her son William in the 1901 census and we only find them with Annie's mother Catherine Ryan.

There is also this from the 1881 census, which is an Elizabeth Barnes, a widow born around 1848 in Ireland with her son William born in Liverpool around 1873, which fits with the 1893 death:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQD8-X8R

[Billy_B]

Got the wedding certificate today:

Date: Eighteenth April 1869
Groom: Thomas Barnes, 25 years, bachelor, fireman, 87 Rose Vale, Everton. Father: William Barnes, laborer
Bride: Eliza Barry, 2 years, -, spinster, Rose Vale, Everton. Father: John Barry, laborer
Where: St Anthony's chapel, Liverpool
By: Nicholas Molloy
Registrar: John L. Kelly
Witnesses: Patrick Barry and Julia Barry

All signed with their marks.

St Anthony's is two blocks north up Scotland Road from Wilbraham Street.

Not much that we didn't already know from this:

Thomas Barnes, son of William (Gulielmi), married Elizam Barry, dau. of John (Joannis) on 18/4/1869 St. Anthony, Liverpool - witnesses Patricio Barry and Julia Barry.

However, his occupation confirms we've got all the right people.

Also her age shifts her estimated year of birth to around 1846, which would support the 1893 death:

If Eliza was born around 1844 in Ireland, we have these possibilities:

1878, aged 35:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=UMDluMLnWpHZ83iG%2F9%2BZPw&scan=1

1893, aged 46 (although this would give an estimated birth of 1847):
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=m2YDzbozPV0XuUkY4C5HYQ&scan=1

1903, aged 59:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=CjGYKzR3lGr%2FSeTwYZbZUw&scan=1

A bit tricky to call. If she died in 1903, then you might imagine she'd be with her son William in the 1901 census and we only find them with Annie's mother Catherine Ryan.

There is also this from the 1881 census, which is an Elizabeth Barnes, a widow born around 1848 in Ireland with her son William born in Liverpool around 1873, which fits with the 1893 death:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQD8-X8R

I don't have her in the 1891 census, but the 1893 death is looking more consistent. I'll get the certificate ordered later on.