Birth/baptism - William Barnes (b. 1872 in Liverpool)

[Billy_B]

I wonder if George and Isabella Kirkpatrick may have been related to the Ryans rather than the Barnes??

1871 census
Moses and Kate Ryan (Annie's parents) are lodging with the Brocksapp? family - and are living next door to George & Isabella Kirkpatrick

Well spotted - that is where a fresh pair of eyes come in handy. Moses Ryan appears in the 1861 census on his own, but with a lot of other Ryans. As his bit of the family tree has fallen apart recently (despite the fact that there aren't that many Moses Ryans around), it is definitely possible he was staying with/near family while he was finding his feet. He is then in his own home with Catherine and Annie in the 1881 census before his unfortunate industrial accident.

[Blue70]

The strange spelling of Barn(e)s as Barron also appears in the marriage register for the same church (Our Lady of Reconciliation Liverpool). An 11 May 1862 marriage of a John Barron son of Thomas Barron and Ellen Sinnott both of County Wexford, Ireland. The John and Ellen who married there were great, great grandparents of Cilla Black. If you research the surnames Barnes, Barns, Barron etc on Irish sites you will find that these different spellings appear as variations of the same surname used in Ireland.   


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[Billy_B]

The strange spelling of Barn(e)s as Barron also appears in the marriage register for the same church (Our Lady of Reconciliation Liverpool). An 11 May 1862 marriage of a John Barron son of Thomas Barron and Ellen Sinnott both of County Wexford, Ireland. The John and Ellen who married there were great, great grandparents of Cilla Black. If you research the surnames Barnes, Barns, Barron etc on Irish sites you will find that these different spellings appear as variations of the same surname used in Ireland.

Thanks for that information - we'd been so focused on Barnes as an English surname that we hadn't looked into Irish variations, but the baptismal records now make more sense. I'll keep an eye out for the family being listed as Baron in the Irish records. I have spoken to the administrators of the Barron DNA Project but they don't see any clear matches with their members, but then again I don't have any good matches with Barneses either.

Of course, it does now bring in the fear that we may be distantly related to Cilla Black! 

[Blue70]

"Surprise, surprise.."


Blue

[Billy_B]

"Surprise, surprise.."

You prepare yourself for murderers, terrible industrial accidents, evil Norman overlords and murderous icebergs, but not that. The horror. 

[Billy_B]

Julia BARRY daughter of John and Johanna BARRY has a sister Eliza b.~1844.

We have the Barrys in the the 1851 and 1861 censuses:

• 1851: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKV6-1CNG
• 1861: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7P4-TDZ

So they appear to come from Wexford and presumably married in Ireland where they had some kids before coming to Liverpool and having some more, so it looks like they'd be easy to track down. The wife's maiden name would help pin them down In Ireland (as a quite search doesn't show up anything obvious) and I should be able get it from one of the English childrens' birth certificates. Julia seems the most obvious but I can't find anything for her, or Martha, and there are too many for the second son called John, but it looks like this is Catherine:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2N4H-HNN

Given the apparent lack of a registration for Julia and Martha Barry or any of the Barnes children, is this common? This kind of thing has caused a brickwall on my wife's side (which you kind folks helped resolve) and I'm wondering if (possibly illiterate) Irish immigrants often didn't get their children registered.

Anyway, looking into the parents' deaths - Johanna turns up in the 1871 census as a widow, which implies John Barry snr died between the two censuses, giving us two possibilities:

• 1962: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2NK7-G39
• 1965: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2NGG-M6G

Confusingly, this seems to be Johanna's burial in 1882, aged 69:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JZMD-KMH

But the matching death index says she is 62:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=jjifAD6WOcJMLiCAFE9UyQ&scan=1

Unless, her death wasn't registered (which seems a more difficult thing to manage), that seems worth ordering her death certificate.

I can't find her in the 1881 census but an 1871 death of a Johanna Barry has a note saying her husband is a Clement Barry:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=Mfjpq98DwFD3F4UDMu5V6Q&scan=1

[Billy_B]

Also going back to William and Annie Barnes family, the 1911 shows they lost two children. There has been talk in the family about two children who died young and/or at birth:

• Thomas Barnes - he was born on the 27th May, 1903 and baptised 8th June, 1903. He apparently died when he was 3 months old, but I found this death registration, although he would have been less than a month old..
• Anthony Barnes - he was apparently my father's twin, so would have been born around the same time as hims: 13th May, 1899. However, no one has been able to find any records for him, which (assuming we are right about his name and being my dad's twin, although this is something a number of first cousins knew independently) suggests he could have been stillborn. However, if he was, then would he count towards the live birth count on the 1911 census? If not then there may be another birth lurking around.

[Blue70]

This birth index could be for William but if you give it a go I would enter the details online at the GRO site without the full details so they check it to make sure it's right, saying no to "Is the GRO Index Reference Number known?" entering the year only as 1872. On the next page enter the name as William Barron, I wouldn't bother with the date of birth as it might be different if it was a late registration so enter as 01/01/1872, place of birth as Liverpool and parents names as Thomas Barron and Elizabeth Barry. 

Name: William Barron
Registration Year: 1872
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Liverpool
Volume: 8b
Page: 23

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/


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[Billy_B]

This birth index could be for William but if you give it a go I would enter the details online at the GRO site without the full details so they check it to make sure it's right, saying no to "Is the GRO Index Reference Number known?" entering the year only as 1872. On the next page enter the name as William Barron, I wouldn't bother with the date of birth as it might be different if it was a late registration so enter as 01/01/1872, place of birth as Liverpool and parents names as Thomas Barron and Elizabeth Barry. 

Name: William Barron
Registration Year: 1872
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Liverpool
Volume: 8b
Page: 23

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

Thanks for spotting that, I did check but using "Baron" not "Barron", and for the tips on ordering - I am preparing a batch of certificate orders at the moment and will bung that in there.