"A papist"

[Annie65115]

"A papist". I saw this comment next to a burial in a 17th century church record.

I didn't keep a note of the name and exact date but this was Baslow, Derbyshire and of note is the fact that in 1588, just a few miles away at Padley, a landed family lost their home for concealing two catholic priests, and the priests were hung drawn and quartered. This wouldn't have been within the lifetime of the "papist" being buried but I'm sure would have been known of.

Anyway, I just wondered if anyone had found similar entries in old PRs, and also how covert Catholics usually buried their dead? I presume they would have stayed away from the local Anglican church normally and if so, were there then issues when they needed to be married or buried? Or would they have taken part in the Anglican services normally then held private covert Catholic services separately?

[Lilym]

I found several in a north of England burial register, after all they had to be buried in the parish churchyard. It was probably up to the vicar how they were entered in the register.

[clayton bradley]

Somewhat later than your reference, my ancestors were papists in Lancashire in the 17th and 18th centuries and they were buried at their local Anglican churches, Church Kirk or Altham, where they were labelled as papist in the registers, sometimes with the additional comment that no services were held, they being papists. Presumably a Catholic service was held, but there is no record, cb

[Blue70]

Liverpool 19th century burial registers have a lot of "Papist" or "Romanist" burials it just meant that the ceremonial aspect was not done by the C of E but by an RC priest. Restrictions against Catholics were relaxed over time. I have ancestors in Lancashire in the "Return of Papists" of 1767 a census of Catholics. They married and were buried in the C of E but baptised their children in RC chapels.


Blue

[Joney]

An ancient Anglican church as a burial place would not be a problem for 'papists' because it would have been consecrated ground since the medieval period, ie.the church and its graveyard would have been consecrated by men who lived before the time of Henry VIII and therefore recognised the authority of the pope.

I read recently of a woman who died in Little Crosby, Lancashire in the early 1600s. The local vicar knew she was a 'recusant' who had never shown up at his church,  so when she was buried in the churchyard at night in secret,  he promptly ordered the body dug up again and left in the middle of the road ! At this point the Blundell family, also Catholics,  offered to let her be buried on their land on the site of what was believed to be a medieval chapel and therefore already regarded as consecrated ground. This was the origin of the 'Harkirk' chapel on the Blundell land.

However,  this tale was very much the exception. In general Catholics went on being buried in the local parish church
as has already been pointed out. The behaviour of the vicar in the case above may be down to the fact that his parish was in an area which remained so obstinately 'recusant' that he felt he needed to do something to make a stand

[hurworth]

One family of forebears were Catholic but it's not mentioned in the register.  The earliest records I have for them is the mid 1700s though. There is no mention in the registers that they were Catholic even though it was not a secret.  They married and are buried at local Church of England churches and are mentioned in a register for making a donation towards a church clock.

The local lord's family were always Catholic and have a vault in the same graveyard.

[Joney]

Where was that then, hurworth ? That's quite interesting. The local bigwigs would expect to stump up the money for the clock, or similar items, so they do even though they are actually Catholics. I suspect those who weren't Catholics just regarded them as being a bit odd, with strange religious views but basically okay. By the eighteenth century things had settled down more or less, so whatever they choose to do in private isn't generally seen as a problem.

By the way, although they marry in the local parish church for legal reasons, that is they need their children to be regarded as legitimate and their heirs able to succeed to property etc, they would also have had a private Catholic ceremony. They wouldn't regard the C of E service as valid in relious terms. I don't think most people realise that.

[Annie65115]

That's what I thought, Joney. In particular, in earlier, more dangerous (for Catholic) times, I imagine that they showed their face at the CofE church because you wouldn't want to be spotted as a dissenter, would you?

But to maintain their Catholic faith they must also have been involved in Catholic ceremonies ----

[hurworth]

Joney - it's Ingatestone, Essex.   

The Petre family have a vault there (that's not us)

I wonder whether their denomination isn't mentioned because it was assumed everyone knew.

I've come across other family members at Stock and Buttsbury.  Some of the families they intermarried with were not Catholic.   I don't get a sense that this caused huge family divisions (from wills it appears no one was disinherited) but I could be incorrect.  I wonder whether it is because these are fairly small villages and everyone knew everyone and some families had lived in the area for a long time.